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Agreed 100%. Wikipedia is similar, in that both SO and Wikipedia have clearly defined goals, and policies based on achieving those goals. But for as long as the

by mwfunk 7y ago

Agreed 100%. Wikipedia is similar, in that both SO and Wikipedia have clearly defined goals, and policies based on achieving those goals. But for as long as they've been around there have always been people who get worked up over those sites not being quite what they want them to be. And what they want want them to be is usually a place where anything goes, and/or a place where they can more effectively earn some form of imaginary internet points, or at least not have meanies downvote them or reject their contributions. I'm sure both SO and Wikipedia have their own dysfunction even within the constraints of their stated policies, which I'm sure is a constant struggle to deal with. But that's inevitable, communities always have issues to deal with. Those are different issues than users wishing a site had different goals. I'm all in favor of sites like SO or Wikipedia (or Reddit, or HN) having all sorts of constraints on what types of content they want and how they operate. Maybe it's frustrating sometimes for people who are set on relying on one of those sites for everything (and therefore want them to be all things to all people), but overall I think those types of self-imposed constraints are exactly what makes them useful and interesting, and allows them to grow in ways that are unique to the mission of the site.

eitland 7y ago
> But for as long as they've been around there have always been people who get worked up over those sites not being quite what they want them to be Problem is those sites used to be better. A number of us where fighting to keep good resources good. It feels we were steamrolled by people who enjoyed playing admins instead of actually asking or answering questions. If you look into S.O. you'll find a abandoned accounts with a large number of points. People who made tbe site work. I think a number of them gave up after trying to fight the bureaucracy.
- Sacho 7y ago
  The opposite is true - the most common complaint from high-rep users, by far[0][1][2], is that there are too many garbage questions and not enough moderation. [0] - https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252756/are-high-reputation-users-answering-fewer-questions https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252756/are-high-rep... [1] - https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324072/how-to-lure-professionals-to-stack-overflow https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324072/how-to-lure-... [2] - https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324243/the-life-of-answering-questions-on-stack-overflow https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324243/the-life-of-...
  - eitland 7y ago
    As I tried to point out elsewhere: when everyone on the Internet can make accounts instantly and gain the privilege to post instantly then it isn't a moderation problem but a deeper problem in how the site is run. My guess is if the bar to posting was increased slightly it would help a lot.
Carpetsmoker 7y ago
> And what they want want them to be is usually a place where anything goes, and/or a place where they can more effectively earn some form of imaginary internet points, or at least not have meanies downvote them or reject their contributions. That is most certainly NOT what I argued. This is really frustrating in all these discussions because every time you try to make any argument that even vaguely smells of "hey, let's be a bit nicer?" the massive "zomg you want to allow all the shitty questions from the idiots who can't sit the right way on the toilet!!11!"-strawman gets pulled out. I've been trying to make this argument for years and it's the same strawman every single time. As I already said in the article, on the Vi Stack Exchange we're nice and have good quality. I'm sure there are other sites where this is the case, too. It's proof that it's possible.
- someguydave 7y ago
  I think the kind of people who take forums/SE/wikis very seriously and have a strong belief in the Platonic ideal of their respective forum are exactly the kind of people who should be completely excluded from having any kind of status on that site. There is such a thing as taking something too seriously. The puzzle is: how do you sustain a site with unpaid "user contributed" content while you actively discourage the most prolific (and also likely most problematic) users?
paulmd 7y ago
> But for as long as they've been around there have always been people who get worked up over those sites not being quite what they want them to be. And what they want want them to be is usually a place where anything goes, and/or a place where they can more effectively earn some form of imaginary internet points, or at least not have meanies downvote them or reject their contributions. This is a straightforward downside of gameification. You've attached badges to being assholes to people who are part of your content creation process, what you get is people who are assholes. Then you end up in a spiral where your community is so toxic that everyone normal leaves, and the only people you are left with are the toxic assholes. The problem is that Wikipedia and SO are both classic examples of Sayre's Law in action: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake". It's such a meaningless argument that any reasonable person comes to the conclusion that it's not worth the trouble and leaves, so you are left with only the unreasonable people. In reality, the type of person who takes pleasure in being a Wikipedia moderator or Stack Overflow badgeguy is the last person in the world who you would actually want to be a moderator. But everyone who's not toxic has left.

by mwfunk 7y ago

eitland 7y ago

> But for as long as they've been around there have always been people who get worked up over those sites not being quite what they want them to be Problem is those sites used to be better. A number of us where fighting to keep good resources good. It feels we were steamrolled by people who enjoyed playing admins instead of actually asking or answering questions. If you look into S.O. you'll find a abandoned accounts with a large number of points. People who made tbe site work. I think a number of them gave up after trying to fight the bureaucracy.

Sacho 7y ago
The opposite is true - the most common complaint from high-rep users, by far[0][1][2], is that there are too many garbage questions and not enough moderation. [0] - https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252756/are-high-reputation-users-answering-fewer-questions https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252756/are-high-rep... [1] - https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324072/how-to-lure-professionals-to-stack-overflow https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324072/how-to-lure-... [2] - https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324243/the-life-of-answering-questions-on-stack-overflow https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/324243/the-life-of-...
- eitland 7y ago
  As I tried to point out elsewhere: when everyone on the Internet can make accounts instantly and gain the privilege to post instantly then it isn't a moderation problem but a deeper problem in how the site is run. My guess is if the bar to posting was increased slightly it would help a lot.

Carpetsmoker 7y ago

> And what they want want them to be is usually a place where anything goes, and/or a place where they can more effectively earn some form of imaginary internet points, or at least not have meanies downvote them or reject their contributions. That is most certainly NOT what I argued. This is really frustrating in all these discussions because every time you try to make any argument that even vaguely smells of "hey, let's be a bit nicer?" the massive "zomg you want to allow all the shitty questions from the idiots who can't sit the right way on the toilet!!11!"-strawman gets pulled out. I've been trying to make this argument for years and it's the same strawman every single time. As I already said in the article, on the Vi Stack Exchange we're nice and have good quality. I'm sure there are other sites where this is the case, too. It's proof that it's possible.

someguydave 7y ago
I think the kind of people who take forums/SE/wikis very seriously and have a strong belief in the Platonic ideal of their respective forum are exactly the kind of people who should be completely excluded from having any kind of status on that site. There is such a thing as taking something too seriously. The puzzle is: how do you sustain a site with unpaid "user contributed" content while you actively discourage the most prolific (and also likely most problematic) users?

paulmd 7y ago

> But for as long as they've been around there have always been people who get worked up over those sites not being quite what they want them to be. And what they want want them to be is usually a place where anything goes, and/or a place where they can more effectively earn some form of imaginary internet points, or at least not have meanies downvote them or reject their contributions. This is a straightforward downside of gameification. You've attached badges to being assholes to people who are part of your content creation process, what you get is people who are assholes. Then you end up in a spiral where your community is so toxic that everyone normal leaves, and the only people you are left with are the toxic assholes. The problem is that Wikipedia and SO are both classic examples of Sayre's Law in action: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake". It's such a meaningless argument that any reasonable person comes to the conclusion that it's not worth the trouble and leaves, so you are left with only the unreasonable people. In reality, the type of person who takes pleasure in being a Wikipedia moderator or Stack Overflow badgeguy is the last person in the world who you would actually want to be a moderator. But everyone who's not toxic has left.