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Back when liberal democracies were still united against tyrannical theocratic authoritarian regimes. Seems like it's been forever ago.

CorruptedArc 7y ago
It's almost an alien concept in modern day isn't it.
jacquesm 7y ago
All it took was one idiot. It's interesting how positive effect on society rarely emanates from single individuals but negative effect examples we have aplenty. There is something fundamental at work here: destruction and creation are not symmetrical in the amount of effort and knowledge they require.
- atonse 7y ago
  Which idiot would that be? (So many to choose from). I'm guessing Trump? It feels like all the idiots involved (Trump, Bolsenaro, Duterte, Johnson) are symptoms of a larger (and sadder) global trend.
  - dgoog 7y ago
    It is comments like this that make liberals look incredibly stupid. The Netherlands... in 2007.
- nerdponx 7y ago
  Who was that idiot exactly, Truman? Taylor? Monroe? The USA has a long history of supporting repressive, violent dictatorships around the world. Maybe it's better excluded from the list of liberal democracies, I don't know.
- katzgrau 7y ago
  No one truly does it alone
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Absolutely a valid observation, every idiot needs a large multitude of enablers. But those never seem to be in short supply. Come to think of it, neither are the idiots.
simplecomplex 7y ago
They still are. But the US is getting a bit tired of doing all the work for the rest of the West.
- atonse 7y ago
  Did you read the article? It's literally a great example of how the US (and Israel) needed to collaborate with 3 other countries to successfully pull off this mission. Not "doing all the work"
  - nerf_javascript 7y ago
    I think the comment's referring to the very large global backlash the US is receiving right now regarding being more strict with Iran from a nuclear perspective. I think people are more obsessed with hating all of Trump's policies rather than actually understanding the situation with Iran. I would highly doubt that if the same situation occurred today, that the US would have the same sort of support against Iran, for better or worse.
    - simplecomplex 7y ago
      Bingo. Things like stuxnet are exceptions that prove the rule. The US has been largely alone in dealing with China and the Middle East. We’ve been alone fighting the worlds autocratic regimes lately. Where we have support we’ve had to push for it.
      - southerntofu 7y ago
        What has the US done to promote freedom? Nothing. In China? They've setup trade restrictions. No effects on freedom. In the Middle East? They've helped bomb ISIS, but they're merely supporting local anti-ISIS militias (think YPG/FSA) who do the real work/fight. Worth noting: just like CIA armed then chased Ben Laden, US military intervention in Syria armed many many religious conservative militias in 2011, because they were afraid of an anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist insurrection (which was and still is happening in Rojava). Many of these reactionary militias have since then joined ISIS. Also worth noting: the US are a big supporter of Erdogan's Turkey, one of the most genocidal regimes in the region, and a key supplier to ISIS. Way more dangerous than the conservative republic of Iran, to any neutral observer. So yeah, try to "deal with" your own country. There's plenty to fix on your side without pretending to worry about other people. Same goes for my people (the french) who keep destroying/colonizing other countries (Libya, Mali, Guyane..) pretending they care about the population. Truth is as much of a tyrant Qaddafi was, his violent overthrow by NATO directly caused the return of slavery for millions of black people in Libya. That's what happens when you bring guns to someone else's table to "deal with" their problems you have no idea/interest about.
C14L 7y ago
When was that?
arianvanp 7y ago
Not so long ago the same agency warned the US about the Russian hackers that were active during the presidential campaign. Does that count? https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/hackers-aivd-leverden-cruciaal-bewijs-over-russische-inmenging-in-amerikaanse-verkiezingen~b32c6077/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/hackers-aivd-le... I think especially on the digital front, we've been more 'united' than ever. For better or for worse
sittingnut 7y ago
"liberal democracies"?!
StreamBright 7y ago
You forgot one minor detail, the tyrannical theocratic authoritarian regime they created. Update: Before you downvote please read the history of Iran. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état
roywiggins 7y ago
We have never been "united" against autocracies. There's no such point in history. On the contrary, we've cheerfully supported autocracies, as long as they mostly play ball with our commercial and political priorities. That's not to excuse the US's current batshit Iran policy, in which we've managed to successfully isolate ourselves diplomatically and gained more or less nothing in exchange.
- tamizhar 7y ago
  > as long as they mostly play ball with our commercial and political priorities. our?
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    Liberal democracies' generally.
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into political flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
srean 7y ago
Well, we have a theocracy in Iran because 'a liberal democracy' did not like the democratic government that was developing in Iran. That nascent democratic government wanted to spend the natural resources of its country in a way that benefited their own, rather then corporations of the other democracy.
tamizhar 7y ago
> tyrannical theocratic authoritarian regimes. Yes, the authoritarian regime that bans women from having equal rights and access to basic medical services or control over reproductive rights. The authoritarian regime that continues to enslave, murder and in general treats part of the population as subhuman based on their skin color. The authoritarian regime that has a track record of financing terrorism, of enabling corporations to create banana republics, of creating false flag attacks, invading other countries willy nilly, of dropping atomic bombs on other nations, of testing nuclear weapons on tribal populations. I hope we can have regime change in that tyrannical place.

CorruptedArc 7y ago

It's almost an alien concept in modern day isn't it.

jacquesm 7y ago

All it took was one idiot. It's interesting how positive effect on society rarely emanates from single individuals but negative effect examples we have aplenty. There is something fundamental at work here: destruction and creation are not symmetrical in the amount of effort and knowledge they require.

atonse 7y ago
Which idiot would that be? (So many to choose from). I'm guessing Trump? It feels like all the idiots involved (Trump, Bolsenaro, Duterte, Johnson) are symptoms of a larger (and sadder) global trend.
- dgoog 7y ago
  It is comments like this that make liberals look incredibly stupid. The Netherlands... in 2007.
nerdponx 7y ago
Who was that idiot exactly, Truman? Taylor? Monroe? The USA has a long history of supporting repressive, violent dictatorships around the world. Maybe it's better excluded from the list of liberal democracies, I don't know.
katzgrau 7y ago
No one truly does it alone
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Absolutely a valid observation, every idiot needs a large multitude of enablers. But those never seem to be in short supply. Come to think of it, neither are the idiots.

simplecomplex 7y ago

They still are. But the US is getting a bit tired of doing all the work for the rest of the West.

atonse 7y ago
Did you read the article? It's literally a great example of how the US (and Israel) needed to collaborate with 3 other countries to successfully pull off this mission. Not "doing all the work"
- nerf_javascript 7y ago
  I think the comment's referring to the very large global backlash the US is receiving right now regarding being more strict with Iran from a nuclear perspective. I think people are more obsessed with hating all of Trump's policies rather than actually understanding the situation with Iran. I would highly doubt that if the same situation occurred today, that the US would have the same sort of support against Iran, for better or worse.
  - simplecomplex 7y ago
    Bingo. Things like stuxnet are exceptions that prove the rule. The US has been largely alone in dealing with China and the Middle East. We’ve been alone fighting the worlds autocratic regimes lately. Where we have support we’ve had to push for it.
    - southerntofu 7y ago
      What has the US done to promote freedom? Nothing. In China? They've setup trade restrictions. No effects on freedom. In the Middle East? They've helped bomb ISIS, but they're merely supporting local anti-ISIS militias (think YPG/FSA) who do the real work/fight. Worth noting: just like CIA armed then chased Ben Laden, US military intervention in Syria armed many many religious conservative militias in 2011, because they were afraid of an anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist insurrection (which was and still is happening in Rojava). Many of these reactionary militias have since then joined ISIS. Also worth noting: the US are a big supporter of Erdogan's Turkey, one of the most genocidal regimes in the region, and a key supplier to ISIS. Way more dangerous than the conservative republic of Iran, to any neutral observer. So yeah, try to "deal with" your own country. There's plenty to fix on your side without pretending to worry about other people. Same goes for my people (the french) who keep destroying/colonizing other countries (Libya, Mali, Guyane..) pretending they care about the population. Truth is as much of a tyrant Qaddafi was, his violent overthrow by NATO directly caused the return of slavery for millions of black people in Libya. That's what happens when you bring guns to someone else's table to "deal with" their problems you have no idea/interest about.

C14L 7y ago

When was that?

arianvanp 7y ago

Not so long ago the same agency warned the US about the Russian hackers that were active during the presidential campaign. Does that count? https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/hackers-aivd-leverden-cruciaal-bewijs-over-russische-inmenging-in-amerikaanse-verkiezingen~b32c6077/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/hackers-aivd-le... I think especially on the digital front, we've been more 'united' than ever. For better or for worse

sittingnut 7y ago

"liberal democracies"?!

StreamBright 7y ago

You forgot one minor detail, the tyrannical theocratic authoritarian regime they created. Update: Before you downvote please read the history of Iran. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état

roywiggins 7y ago

We have never been "united" against autocracies. There's no such point in history. On the contrary, we've cheerfully supported autocracies, as long as they mostly play ball with our commercial and political priorities. That's not to excuse the US's current batshit Iran policy, in which we've managed to successfully isolate ourselves diplomatically and gained more or less nothing in exchange.

tamizhar 7y ago
> as long as they mostly play ball with our commercial and political priorities. our?
- roywiggins 7y ago
  Liberal democracies' generally.

dang 7y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into political flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

srean 7y ago

Well, we have a theocracy in Iran because 'a liberal democracy' did not like the democratic government that was developing in Iran. That nascent democratic government wanted to spend the natural resources of its country in a way that benefited their own, rather then corporations of the other democracy.

tamizhar 7y ago

> tyrannical theocratic authoritarian regimes. Yes, the authoritarian regime that bans women from having equal rights and access to basic medical services or control over reproductive rights. The authoritarian regime that continues to enslave, murder and in general treats part of the population as subhuman based on their skin color. The authoritarian regime that has a track record of financing terrorism, of enabling corporations to create banana republics, of creating false flag attacks, invading other countries willy nilly, of dropping atomic bombs on other nations, of testing nuclear weapons on tribal populations. I hope we can have regime change in that tyrannical place.