7 ms·

", at least in advanced capitalist nations such as the UK and the US, where the processes of secularisation have recently been distinctly uneven, we don’t quite

by Iv 7y ago

", at least in advanced capitalist nations such as the UK and the US, where the processes of secularisation have recently been distinctly uneven, we don’t quite know how to behave in places that, in Erin-Marie Legacey’s phrase, make space for the dead. I can remember provoking a similar morally outraged reaction when, a decade ago, I took my small children to the local cemetery for a picnic" I... what? Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. It is about empathy and not being an asshole. People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. And that author, talking about "advanced capitalist nations" like UK was one and France was stuck, like he seems to be, in the 19th century... A lot of things happened in France between the revolution (1789) and the first stable republic (1871). A lot of it had to do with religion and monarchism, which were highly political. Secularism would really reign triumphantly only at the very beginning of the 20th century with the 1905 law of separation between the church and the state and this has been a very crucial turning point. Talking about 19th century religious sentiment in France won't be relevant if you ignore the secularization process that has happened during the 20th century. Something, dare I say, the "advanced nation of UK", with its official religion and archbishops having a voice in legislative matters, has never gone through.

flukus 7y ago
> Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. Doesn't the burial itself have religious roots even when it's no longer administered by a church? Anecdotally, there has been a recent trend away from cemeteries altogether now that the religious reasoning isn't there, with people having there ashes scattered somewhere meaningful or kept with family. > People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. The last "funeral" I went to was an ashes scattering at the beach, which is basically a huge playground with kids running around everywhere. It didn't detract from the mourning.
- Iv 7y ago
  I am not talking about funerals, which are weird one-off social events. I am talking about the typical crowd going to a cemetery. When you "have something to do" there it usually involves mourning and a trip to memory lane. You want some peace and a meditative atmosphere. It is not about the deceased, it is not about the magical fluff around the funerals, it is about the living and their grief. Bringing kids to play in the middle of cemetery is to me like bringing them in the middle of a library with a lot of people deep into their books. If you do that, you are an asshole. It is not about religion. It could be about culture, but I want to believe that what I am saying is pretty obvious to most Americans as well.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    This is going to vary across cultures. I have seen cemetery picnics in South American cities, the UK, France and here in New Zealand. There were many many families at weekends at cemeteries in Chile. It seems that family picnics at the cemetery used to be common in the US too. It wouldn’t be appropriate during a funeral, but why is it not ok outside that time if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners? https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america.amp https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles...
    - Iv 7y ago
      "if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners?" Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry. Would you let your kids play in the middle of a reading room or a meditation session? Sure, some people do that in all cultures. And across all cultures, we use different expression to convey the sentiment "they are being assholes".
      - coldtea 7y ago
        >Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry That's like your opinion. To quote a famous playwright: "Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.”
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Doesn't the burial itself have religious roots even when it's no longer administered by a church? Anecdotally, there has been a recent trend away from cemeteries altogether now that the religious reasoning isn't there, with people having there ashes scattered somewhere meaningful or kept with family. Treating your dead as anything else than an annoying piece of meat to dispose of has religious roots. The idea to attach some sentimental value to our dead, is one of the oldest manifestations of civilization (neolithic age and before), and tied to viewing humans and our relations in a different light than mere animalistic.
  - G4E 7y ago
    So keeping an old broken watch your grandfather gave you because you have sentiments attached to it is also religious ? I think you're mixing up sentiment and respect to something that use to have value to you with religion.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >So keeping an old broken watch your grandfather gave you because you have sentiments attached to it is also religious ? Well, it's worth is metaphysical, not practical. Doesn't have to be tied to an explicit religious mythology to be so. As a gesture it's part of the same process from where religion (and religious sentiment) emerged. (I don't mean to knock it, by the way).
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    What? Its simple sentimentality. Love, hate, sorrow are normal human emotions. Related to/hijacked by religion. The real root of burial is emotion, not religion?
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Love, hate, sorrow are normal human emotions Yes, but humans weren't always humans themselves, but more like animals (and before that, exactly like animals). Those emotions were developed and honed over thousands of years, and the religious experience one of the major carriers and early expressions of those. >The real root of burial is emotion, not religion? Not much difference. Early religion was akin to organized emotion (including sorrow, mourning, fear, hope, etc). "The earliest evidence of religious thought is based on the ritual treatment of the dead. Most animals display only a casual interest in the dead of their own species. Ritual burial thus represents a significant change in human behavior. Ritual burials represent an awareness of life and death and a possible belief in the afterlife. Philip Lieberman states "burials with grave goods clearly signify religious practices and concern for the dead that transcends daily life." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religio... Or: "In the latter part of the twentieth century, theories of religion that emerged especially from the social sciences reiterated the claim that emotion was central to religion. In the work of Robert Bellah, Clifford Geertz, and, eventually, Rodney Stark, “feeling” of one sort or another was integral to religion" https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Handbook-Religion-Emotion-Handbooks/dp/0190608587 https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Handbook-Religion-Emotion-Hand...
saurik 7y ago
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-a...
coldtea 7y ago
>Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. It is about empathy and not being an asshole. People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. That's culture-specific. You don't bring kids playing next to a funeral, but occasional walks, strolls, etc, to a cemetery are quite common in many countries. For cultures that are not skittish with the dead, cemeteries are also big, peace-full, tree-laden, places. Also ideal to contemplate how short life is. In Mexico, of course, they also have all kinds of celebrations in cemeteries... But personal/family visits/strolls (and even picnics) have been a staple all around the world... https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/24/picnic-in-the-cemetery/ https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/24/picnic-in-the-ceme... https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/our-first-public-parks-the-forgotten-history-of-cemeteries/71818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/our-fir...

by Iv 7y ago

flukus 7y ago

> Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. Doesn't the burial itself have religious roots even when it's no longer administered by a church? Anecdotally, there has been a recent trend away from cemeteries altogether now that the religious reasoning isn't there, with people having there ashes scattered somewhere meaningful or kept with family. > People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. The last "funeral" I went to was an ashes scattering at the beach, which is basically a huge playground with kids running around everywhere. It didn't detract from the mourning.

Iv 7y ago
I am not talking about funerals, which are weird one-off social events. I am talking about the typical crowd going to a cemetery. When you "have something to do" there it usually involves mourning and a trip to memory lane. You want some peace and a meditative atmosphere. It is not about the deceased, it is not about the magical fluff around the funerals, it is about the living and their grief. Bringing kids to play in the middle of cemetery is to me like bringing them in the middle of a library with a lot of people deep into their books. If you do that, you are an asshole. It is not about religion. It could be about culture, but I want to believe that what I am saying is pretty obvious to most Americans as well.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  This is going to vary across cultures. I have seen cemetery picnics in South American cities, the UK, France and here in New Zealand. There were many many families at weekends at cemeteries in Chile. It seems that family picnics at the cemetery used to be common in the US too. It wouldn’t be appropriate during a funeral, but why is it not ok outside that time if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners? https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america.amp https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles...
  - Iv 7y ago
    "if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners?" Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry. Would you let your kids play in the middle of a reading room or a meditation session? Sure, some people do that in all cultures. And across all cultures, we use different expression to convey the sentiment "they are being assholes".
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry That's like your opinion. To quote a famous playwright: "Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.”
coldtea 7y ago
>Doesn't the burial itself have religious roots even when it's no longer administered by a church? Anecdotally, there has been a recent trend away from cemeteries altogether now that the religious reasoning isn't there, with people having there ashes scattered somewhere meaningful or kept with family. Treating your dead as anything else than an annoying piece of meat to dispose of has religious roots. The idea to attach some sentimental value to our dead, is one of the oldest manifestations of civilization (neolithic age and before), and tied to viewing humans and our relations in a different light than mere animalistic.
- G4E 7y ago
  So keeping an old broken watch your grandfather gave you because you have sentiments attached to it is also religious ? I think you're mixing up sentiment and respect to something that use to have value to you with religion.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >So keeping an old broken watch your grandfather gave you because you have sentiments attached to it is also religious ? Well, it's worth is metaphysical, not practical. Doesn't have to be tied to an explicit religious mythology to be so. As a gesture it's part of the same process from where religion (and religious sentiment) emerged. (I don't mean to knock it, by the way).
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  What? Its simple sentimentality. Love, hate, sorrow are normal human emotions. Related to/hijacked by religion. The real root of burial is emotion, not religion?
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Love, hate, sorrow are normal human emotions Yes, but humans weren't always humans themselves, but more like animals (and before that, exactly like animals). Those emotions were developed and honed over thousands of years, and the religious experience one of the major carriers and early expressions of those. >The real root of burial is emotion, not religion? Not much difference. Early religion was akin to organized emotion (including sorrow, mourning, fear, hope, etc). "The earliest evidence of religious thought is based on the ritual treatment of the dead. Most animals display only a casual interest in the dead of their own species. Ritual burial thus represents a significant change in human behavior. Ritual burials represent an awareness of life and death and a possible belief in the afterlife. Philip Lieberman states "burials with grave goods clearly signify religious practices and concern for the dead that transcends daily life." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religio... Or: "In the latter part of the twentieth century, theories of religion that emerged especially from the social sciences reiterated the claim that emotion was central to religion. In the work of Robert Bellah, Clifford Geertz, and, eventually, Rodney Stark, “feeling” of one sort or another was integral to religion" https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Handbook-Religion-Emotion-Handbooks/dp/0190608587 https://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Handbook-Religion-Emotion-Hand...

saurik 7y ago

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-a...

coldtea 7y ago

>Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. It is about empathy and not being an asshole. People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. That's culture-specific. You don't bring kids playing next to a funeral, but occasional walks, strolls, etc, to a cemetery are quite common in many countries. For cultures that are not skittish with the dead, cemeteries are also big, peace-full, tree-laden, places. Also ideal to contemplate how short life is. In Mexico, of course, they also have all kinds of celebrations in cemeteries... But personal/family visits/strolls (and even picnics) have been a staple all around the world... https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/24/picnic-in-the-cemetery/ https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/24/picnic-in-the-ceme... https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/our-first-public-parks-the-forgotten-history-of-cemeteries/71818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/our-fir...