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People have been vaping for a decade. There is no epidemic of vape-related pulmonary issues anywhere else than in the US right now. Smoking kills over eight mi

People have been vaping for a decade. There is no epidemic of vape-related pulmonary issues anywhere else than in the US right now. Smoking kills over eight million people every year, 480,000 of them in the US alone. Even if the current epidemic turns out to be global, vaping is still several orders of magnitude less lethal.

shkkmo 7y ago
Given how long smoking was deemed to be safe, what studies have you seen that show that vaping hasn't and won't turn out to have long term health effects on par with smoking? A decade is not a very long time to run the kind of large scale longitudinal studies that are needed to accurately gauge long term health effects. Making significant claims about the long term safety of e-cigs without this data seems quite irresponsible. Edit: lots of downvotes but still nobody actually willing to provide evidence for these ridiculous "several orders of magnitude safer" claims.
- intertextuality 7y ago
  It’s so strange to me how vaping is seen as this miraculous thing and any criticism is seen as being a hater. 10 years is not nearly long enough to measure long term health effects, sorry. Being “safer than cigs” isn’t worth anything at all.
  - voltagex_ 7y ago
    Possible reasons were discussed in https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/how-vaping-will-make-you-free/11461866 https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbrie... (transcript coming later AFAICT). Basically: libertarians and tobacco lobby groups.
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    It's worth a lot if people vape over smoking cigarettes. It's worth negative if people who wouldn't otherwise smoke cigs take up vaping.
    - idDriven 7y ago
      More complex question would be if I vape my dessert flavor with or without nicotine is that better for me than eating said dessert? I have had so many people tell me how they 'cant resist' sweets, and I'd rather vape my cake.
  - mastazi 7y ago
    A lot of the resistance you describe comes from the fact that vaping is illegal in many countries (interestingly, smoking is legal in almost all of those places) and people living in places where vaping is legal, are concerned that there might be a push towards prohibition. I agree with you that the amount of evidence we have is not conclusive and if you browse the various vaping forums online, you can see that most vapers openly admit that as well, the problem arises when the lack of conclusive evidence is used as an argument in favour of prohibition, that is what drives many vapers to respond. In other words, if something is “possibly harmful but we’re not sure yet”, is that a sufficient reason for making it illegal? Most vapers think that the answer is no.
    - shkkmo 7y ago
      > people living in places where vaping is legal, are concerned that there might be a push towards prohibition Spreading false, misleading information doesn't help legitimize your cause. > the problem arises when the lack of conclusive evidence is used as an argument in favour of prohibition, that is what drives many vapers to respond I haven't see anyone here doing that, I certainly haven't. > In other words, if something is “possibly harmful but we’re not sure yet”, is that a sufficient reason for making it illegal? Most vapers think that the answer is no. I do not thing there is any doubt that vaping is harmful to some degree (that appears to be the scientific consensus). The unresolved questions are "how harmful?" and "is it a net negative for society?". However, even if the answers are "almost as harmful as cigarettes" and "yes, it increases public health risks overall despite reductions in smoking", I still would not support banning e-cigs (though I would support advertising restrictions).
      - mastazi 7y ago
        I wasn’t replying to you, not sure why you feel the need to resort to personal attacks.
  - gnaritas 7y ago
    > Being “safer than cigs” isn’t worth anything at all. That's just not remotely true; anything that can replace ciggs due to being safer will save many lives even if it's not itself safe.
  - idDriven 7y ago
    Before I switched from smoking 12-ish years ago my lungs would physically hurt in the morning and I would cough when I woke up. To me, and other people who legitimately view vaping as something that was life-changing in a very positive way that comes off as a very uncaring attitude. Vaping dramatically improved my health.
- idDriven 7y ago
  From EPA "Propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol were first registered in 1950 and 1959, respectively, by the FDA for use in hospitals as air disinfectants. At one point, there were approximately 190 pesticide chemical companies having active propylene or dipropylene glycol registrations." This entire report details safety information, including aerosol use for almost 70 years. https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/propylene_glycol_red.pdf https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/pr... Another related Glycol saves sick infants from infection and no long-term sequelae reported: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.37.11.1385 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.37.11... Vegetable Glycerin: https://monq.com/science/vegetable-glycerin/ https://monq.com/science/vegetable-glycerin/ The more research you do on pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics the more the 96% less harmful than smoking figure appears likely to be in the correct ballpark for harm-reduction vs smoking. Source: https://pneumonia.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s41479-016-0001-2 https://pneumonia.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s41479-...

shkkmo 7y ago

Given how long smoking was deemed to be safe, what studies have you seen that show that vaping hasn't and won't turn out to have long term health effects on par with smoking? A decade is not a very long time to run the kind of large scale longitudinal studies that are needed to accurately gauge long term health effects. Making significant claims about the long term safety of e-cigs without this data seems quite irresponsible. Edit: lots of downvotes but still nobody actually willing to provide evidence for these ridiculous "several orders of magnitude safer" claims.

intertextuality 7y ago
It’s so strange to me how vaping is seen as this miraculous thing and any criticism is seen as being a hater. 10 years is not nearly long enough to measure long term health effects, sorry. Being “safer than cigs” isn’t worth anything at all.
- voltagex_ 7y ago
  Possible reasons were discussed in https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/how-vaping-will-make-you-free/11461866 https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbrie... (transcript coming later AFAICT). Basically: libertarians and tobacco lobby groups.
- oh_sigh 7y ago
  It's worth a lot if people vape over smoking cigarettes. It's worth negative if people who wouldn't otherwise smoke cigs take up vaping.
  - idDriven 7y ago
    More complex question would be if I vape my dessert flavor with or without nicotine is that better for me than eating said dessert? I have had so many people tell me how they 'cant resist' sweets, and I'd rather vape my cake.
- mastazi 7y ago
  A lot of the resistance you describe comes from the fact that vaping is illegal in many countries (interestingly, smoking is legal in almost all of those places) and people living in places where vaping is legal, are concerned that there might be a push towards prohibition. I agree with you that the amount of evidence we have is not conclusive and if you browse the various vaping forums online, you can see that most vapers openly admit that as well, the problem arises when the lack of conclusive evidence is used as an argument in favour of prohibition, that is what drives many vapers to respond. In other words, if something is “possibly harmful but we’re not sure yet”, is that a sufficient reason for making it illegal? Most vapers think that the answer is no.
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    > people living in places where vaping is legal, are concerned that there might be a push towards prohibition Spreading false, misleading information doesn't help legitimize your cause. > the problem arises when the lack of conclusive evidence is used as an argument in favour of prohibition, that is what drives many vapers to respond I haven't see anyone here doing that, I certainly haven't. > In other words, if something is “possibly harmful but we’re not sure yet”, is that a sufficient reason for making it illegal? Most vapers think that the answer is no. I do not thing there is any doubt that vaping is harmful to some degree (that appears to be the scientific consensus). The unresolved questions are "how harmful?" and "is it a net negative for society?". However, even if the answers are "almost as harmful as cigarettes" and "yes, it increases public health risks overall despite reductions in smoking", I still would not support banning e-cigs (though I would support advertising restrictions).
    - mastazi 7y ago
      I wasn’t replying to you, not sure why you feel the need to resort to personal attacks.
- gnaritas 7y ago
  > Being “safer than cigs” isn’t worth anything at all. That's just not remotely true; anything that can replace ciggs due to being safer will save many lives even if it's not itself safe.
- idDriven 7y ago
  Before I switched from smoking 12-ish years ago my lungs would physically hurt in the morning and I would cough when I woke up. To me, and other people who legitimately view vaping as something that was life-changing in a very positive way that comes off as a very uncaring attitude. Vaping dramatically improved my health.
idDriven 7y ago
From EPA "Propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol were first registered in 1950 and 1959, respectively, by the FDA for use in hospitals as air disinfectants. At one point, there were approximately 190 pesticide chemical companies having active propylene or dipropylene glycol registrations." This entire report details safety information, including aerosol use for almost 70 years. https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/propylene_glycol_red.pdf https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/pr... Another related Glycol saves sick infants from infection and no long-term sequelae reported: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.37.11.1385 https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.37.11... Vegetable Glycerin: https://monq.com/science/vegetable-glycerin/ https://monq.com/science/vegetable-glycerin/ The more research you do on pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics the more the 96% less harmful than smoking figure appears likely to be in the correct ballpark for harm-reduction vs smoking. Source: https://pneumonia.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s41479-016-0001-2 https://pneumonia.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s41479-...