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> Well they're seeing a rise in immigration (which economically speaking has the same effect as offshoring) Not really, because some or all of he income of the

by aries1980 7y ago

> Well they're seeing a rise in immigration (which economically speaking has the same effect as offshoring) Not really, because some or all of he income of these immigrants are taxed and spent domestically.

Mikeb85 7y ago
Decreasing the cost of labour through immigration is the same. Most immigrants also send money back home. So yes it's the same effect even if the it's not quite the same amount.
- aries1980 7y ago
  But discounting the labour cost is not the only dimension. These immigrants are spending money domestically, increasing the domestic output, creating new market demands, paying rents, etc. I do understand your logic, but my argument is while offshore money is spent outside the borders, immigrants spend most of their income domestically and pay their taxes, which is a too big difference to put it into the same category.
  - Mikeb85 7y ago
    Because their income is discounted, they are more likely to receive social assistance and they send money abroad, in the short-medium term their economic effect is similar to offshoring. Long term, they bring their family over, raise families in the host country, get better jobs and integrate (culturally and economically) so the offshoring effect disappears. The main problem is, especially concerning the rise of populism, when the short term effects become too severe, the long term outcomes don't matter to those who have been affected by lowering wages during their working years. And it's not every industry, perhaps not even a majority who are affected, but for those who are, they feel as though their social contract has been broken, and they vote for whoever promises to fix it. This forum is mostly IT workers. For awhile, wages in this sector in the US were suppressed by things like cartels and H1B visas, and subsequently action was taken to enforce proper employment laws and increase the wage requirements for H1Bs. That was 1 sector, not even that much immigration, and wages showed a noticeable dip. People here were outraged too, but it was before the Trump years so the whole conversation had a different tone. Anyhow, I don't think immigration is bad, but there are pros and cons, different effects on the economy and people, and these definitely need to be accounted for.

Mikeb85 7y ago

Decreasing the cost of labour through immigration is the same. Most immigrants also send money back home. So yes it's the same effect even if the it's not quite the same amount.

aries1980 7y ago
But discounting the labour cost is not the only dimension. These immigrants are spending money domestically, increasing the domestic output, creating new market demands, paying rents, etc. I do understand your logic, but my argument is while offshore money is spent outside the borders, immigrants spend most of their income domestically and pay their taxes, which is a too big difference to put it into the same category.
- Mikeb85 7y ago
  Because their income is discounted, they are more likely to receive social assistance and they send money abroad, in the short-medium term their economic effect is similar to offshoring. Long term, they bring their family over, raise families in the host country, get better jobs and integrate (culturally and economically) so the offshoring effect disappears. The main problem is, especially concerning the rise of populism, when the short term effects become too severe, the long term outcomes don't matter to those who have been affected by lowering wages during their working years. And it's not every industry, perhaps not even a majority who are affected, but for those who are, they feel as though their social contract has been broken, and they vote for whoever promises to fix it. This forum is mostly IT workers. For awhile, wages in this sector in the US were suppressed by things like cartels and H1B visas, and subsequently action was taken to enforce proper employment laws and increase the wage requirements for H1Bs. That was 1 sector, not even that much immigration, and wages showed a noticeable dip. People here were outraged too, but it was before the Trump years so the whole conversation had a different tone. Anyhow, I don't think immigration is bad, but there are pros and cons, different effects on the economy and people, and these definitely need to be accounted for.