4 ms·

"Founded on the enslavement of black people" is at best a misrepresentation of reality, and at worst a counterfactual statement. The bulk of the Northern states

"Founded on the enslavement of black people" is at best a misrepresentation of reality, and at worst a counterfactual statement. The bulk of the Northern states abolished slavery by 1810. The founding principles were at odds with slavery, to the point that many southerners objected to the Declaration of Independence's claim that all men are created equal. Some parts of the US did tolerate the contradiction between its founding principles and slavery for close to a century, and this contradiction between slavery and America's founding principles culminated in a Civil War. There is little merit to the claim that the US was "founded on the enslavement of black people." Several US states were the first governments to abolish slavery in the entire New World. Even if we're explicitly talking about national level abolitionism, the United States was average in terms of the time it took to abolish slavery in the Americas. Slavery continued until 1873, 1886, and 1888 in Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Brazil respectively. Chile, Argentina, Colombia, and Venezuela abolished slavery in the 1810s and 1820s but only prohibited the enslavement of newly born children while allowing the continued enslavement of existing slaves. Hyperbole about slavery in America's founding aside, being the first President of direct African heritage is an achievement that would be worthy of being put on a banknote.

justin66 7y ago
Nothing in your lengthy comment contradicts the point you seem to think you're contradicting.
- manfredo 7y ago
  Elaborate? I point out the fact that: * The principles expressed in founding documents contradict slavery. * Some States banned slavery less than a decade after the country's founding, and within forty years the majority of the country by population had banned slavery. * The contradiction between the founding principles and slavery ultimately led to a Civil War where the former emerged victorious. * The United States' did not take an abnormal amount of time to ban slavery at a national level. And in fact, some States in the US were the first governments to ban slavery in the entire New World. I'm pretty much at a loss as to how someone can come away with this comment thinking that nothing in my comment is refuting the claim that the US was founded on slavery.
avar 7y ago
Reading "all men are created equal" like that is ahistorical. The Declaration of Independence asserted that at the same time as those northern states kept slaves (and would for decades to come), and natives being driven from their lands like cattle. Clearly "all men" was less inclusive than it's thought of today. And just how long does it take to found a country? In 1789 there were around 4 million people in the US, and slavery was legal in most of the country whether measured by area, economic output or population. Even if you take 1810 as the cutoff that's 34 years after independence. Would you say 34 years after the founding of some 20th century nation states (some of which collapsed a lot sooner than that) that it was too early to tell what principles they were founded on? It's also a very narrow view to say that a southern state producing cotton where slavery was legal, and a northern state where slavery wasn't legal but where cotton production with southern material contributed significantly to the economy weren't both involved in slavery.
- manfredo 7y ago
  The principles of universal equality expressed in the Declaration of Independence were indeed interpreted by many as delegitimizing slavery. For example, the Massachusetts constitution included similar language, and this was subsequently used to ban slavery. 34 years is a heartbeat in the overall span of history. Furthermore some states, including some of the most populous ones like Massachusetts abolished slavery less than 5 years after the founding of the United States, and many did so before 1800. Many of the authors of the Declaration of Independence intended slavery to be phased out, and Jefferson banned the importation of slaves during his presidency. It's difficult to claim that the US was founded on slavery when states started to ban slavery almost immediately after its founding and key founding figures took steps to curb slavery. To say that slavery was a "founding principle" of the United States does not have much justification beyond the fact that slavery existed at the time of the United States' founding. By that metric, effectively all countries founded during the New World revolutions of the late 18th and early 19th century were founded on slavery.
  - avar 7y ago
    You're the only one bringing up a "founding principle", which shifts the discussion from reality on the ground towards legislative philosophy. Everything you've said here and in the sibling comment makes the case for the irrelevance of those declared policies. If they were important you'd expect the US to have abolished slavery relatively early, or for it not to have been such an important issue as to have precipitated a civil war within its borders. To say that a country is "founded on" something speaks to its early development. For instance the modern Icelandic state is arguably founded on its fisheries, and the US can be said to have been founded on sustenance agriculture, the economic surplus of slavery etc.

justin66 7y ago

Nothing in your lengthy comment contradicts the point you seem to think you're contradicting.

manfredo 7y ago
Elaborate? I point out the fact that: * The principles expressed in founding documents contradict slavery. * Some States banned slavery less than a decade after the country's founding, and within forty years the majority of the country by population had banned slavery. * The contradiction between the founding principles and slavery ultimately led to a Civil War where the former emerged victorious. * The United States' did not take an abnormal amount of time to ban slavery at a national level. And in fact, some States in the US were the first governments to ban slavery in the entire New World. I'm pretty much at a loss as to how someone can come away with this comment thinking that nothing in my comment is refuting the claim that the US was founded on slavery.

avar 7y ago

Reading "all men are created equal" like that is ahistorical. The Declaration of Independence asserted that at the same time as those northern states kept slaves (and would for decades to come), and natives being driven from their lands like cattle. Clearly "all men" was less inclusive than it's thought of today. And just how long does it take to found a country? In 1789 there were around 4 million people in the US, and slavery was legal in most of the country whether measured by area, economic output or population. Even if you take 1810 as the cutoff that's 34 years after independence. Would you say 34 years after the founding of some 20th century nation states (some of which collapsed a lot sooner than that) that it was too early to tell what principles they were founded on? It's also a very narrow view to say that a southern state producing cotton where slavery was legal, and a northern state where slavery wasn't legal but where cotton production with southern material contributed significantly to the economy weren't both involved in slavery.

manfredo 7y ago
The principles of universal equality expressed in the Declaration of Independence were indeed interpreted by many as delegitimizing slavery. For example, the Massachusetts constitution included similar language, and this was subsequently used to ban slavery. 34 years is a heartbeat in the overall span of history. Furthermore some states, including some of the most populous ones like Massachusetts abolished slavery less than 5 years after the founding of the United States, and many did so before 1800. Many of the authors of the Declaration of Independence intended slavery to be phased out, and Jefferson banned the importation of slaves during his presidency. It's difficult to claim that the US was founded on slavery when states started to ban slavery almost immediately after its founding and key founding figures took steps to curb slavery. To say that slavery was a "founding principle" of the United States does not have much justification beyond the fact that slavery existed at the time of the United States' founding. By that metric, effectively all countries founded during the New World revolutions of the late 18th and early 19th century were founded on slavery.
- avar 7y ago
  You're the only one bringing up a "founding principle", which shifts the discussion from reality on the ground towards legislative philosophy. Everything you've said here and in the sibling comment makes the case for the irrelevance of those declared policies. If they were important you'd expect the US to have abolished slavery relatively early, or for it not to have been such an important issue as to have precipitated a civil war within its borders. To say that a country is "founded on" something speaks to its early development. For instance the modern Icelandic state is arguably founded on its fisheries, and the US can be said to have been founded on sustenance agriculture, the economic surplus of slavery etc.