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I personally support raising awareness of the suffering of innocent Venezuelans and how tech companies are exacerbating that suffering. It would be interesting

I personally support raising awareness of the suffering of innocent Venezuelans and how tech companies are exacerbating that suffering. It would be interesting to see which employees of be tech companies will die on the hill of protecting talented, industrious Venezuelans using American web services to thrive in a very oppressive economy. Conversely, when it's something abstract, like a machine learning research program that barely works or a search engine that doesn't exist yet and that nobody will use, people are ready to make careers out of talking to the press.

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
> how tech companies are exacerbating that suffering. Can you expand a bit on how (say) Instagram ads are responsible for suffering in Venezuela?
- scandox 7y ago
  Well as indicated in the comment if they are "using American web services to thrive in a very oppressive economy" and those services cut them off because they can't be bothered to discriminate then they are potentially harming those person's livelihoods.
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
    So it's the lack of services that's causing suffering, not the services themselves? That makes more sense, but then your protests should be directed at the US government, which created the sanctions.
    - CameronNemo 7y ago
      Agree, and the service providers are fairly supportive stakeholders. But is a small group of entrepreneurs in Venezeuala and tech companies going to change the administration's policy on Venezuela? I doubt it.
    - scandox 7y ago
      I'm not protesting, I was just providing exegesis
jessaustin 7y ago
...very oppressive economy. Citation requested. The problems of the Venezuelan economy are almost entirely due to sanctions.
- dmix 7y ago
  I've posted this a few times so apologies for the length, but it's always fun to hear people push this lie. Venezuela has experienced multiple severe food storages - even before the oil crisis ruined the spending spree (not that it stopped, Chavez just used loans instead) and well before this embargo by the US. During non-shortage times they enjoyed 1970s Russia style ration-like low variety, with half empty supermarkets > In 2005, Chávez announced the initiation of Venezuela's own "great leap forward", following the example of Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward.[32] An increase in shortages began to occur that year as 5% of items became unavailable according to the Central Bank of Venezuela.[33] In January 2008, 24.7% of goods were reported to be unavailable in Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela > Since the 1990s, food production in Venezuela has dropped continuously, with Hugo Chávez's Bolivarian government beginning to rely upon imported food using the country's then-large oil profits. (they have tons of farmland, the farmers were the ones who pushed the hardest for Chavez) > Such currency controls have been determined to be the cause of shortages according to many economists and other experts [25][26][27]. However, the Venezuelan government blamed other entities such as the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela Much of the policies targeting the rich to help the poor completely failed and everyone just got poorer: > The Chávez government overspent in social spending, however, and did not save enough money for any future economic difficulties.[6] On 31 March 2000, Chávez initiated policies that resulted with the Venezuelan government spending more than it received as oil prices began to rise.[40] Poverty in Venezuela began increasing going into the 2010s.[41] During Chávez's campaign before the 2012 presidential election, he tripled Venezuela's deficit while on a "spending spree".[42] In 2014 El Universal reported that in the previous five years that included years under Chávez's policies, purchasing power for those with minimum wage jobs had dramatically decreased compared to other countries in the region, supposedly due to the high inflation rate and the multiple devaluations of Venezuela's currency. [authors comment: this being the consequences of mass debt and little value to replace it, clearly the west made them do it!]. The only country that goes on a massive spending spree for the poor and makes them poorer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Ch... Their entirely centralized economic system has long been busting at the seems. Besides from a few dictators almost no foreign investment comes in because they keep robbing the "evil capitalists" of their entire business, creating a byzantine system of price controls to keep things 'cheaper' (lol) and administrative controls at both the industry and company level: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Venezuela_historic_inflation_index_and_oil_revenue.png/1280px-Venezuela_historic_inflation_index_and_oil_revenue.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Ve... Of course they've continuously blamed a grand western conspiracy for all of their problems since the early 2000s (a few yrs after the previous economic production kept things afloat temporarily, but after reality hit). But that's been the automatic excuse for a long list of other failed states like Nicaragua, Soviet Russia, etc so it's not surprising even when its 50% true. No one forced them to do disastrous price controls, scared away all of their smart people, and ruined every industry they centralized. When you threaten to shoot people who cross a border to buy fruits and vegetables something is seriously wrong. Keep in mind this a country that would otherwise be the richest per capita in the region had they followed traditional economic policies. Nigeria will soon pass them in GDP per capita.If Maduro stays the future doesn't look bright: https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/371876/gross-domestic-product-gdp-per-capita-in-venezuela.jpg https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/371876/gross-domestic-pro... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Venezuela_Oil_Reserves.png?1567393748945 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Venezuel... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oi... (VZ is #1) Finally: Iran (which has 80M people vs 31M in VZ) = $18,504/GDP per capita. Iraq = $5,165/per. Venezuela = $2k/GDP per capita. Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait, take your pick all have higher per capita GDP. I wonder what they did differently....
perl4ever 7y ago
It seems to me that it's pretty common for Facebook to be described as one of the most evil organizations in the world, or as totally useless, so when someone talks about access as a human right, I sort of lose the thread of why everybody hates them. I think I am incapable of hating any entity that cannot act in an acceptable manner as a matter of logic.
Buge 7y ago
>a search engine that doesn't exist yet If you want to stop something, it's easiest to stop it before it exists. Otherwise you have to overcome the status quo, which is hard.

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago

> how tech companies are exacerbating that suffering. Can you expand a bit on how (say) Instagram ads are responsible for suffering in Venezuela?

scandox 7y ago
Well as indicated in the comment if they are "using American web services to thrive in a very oppressive economy" and those services cut them off because they can't be bothered to discriminate then they are potentially harming those person's livelihoods.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  So it's the lack of services that's causing suffering, not the services themselves? That makes more sense, but then your protests should be directed at the US government, which created the sanctions.
  - CameronNemo 7y ago
    Agree, and the service providers are fairly supportive stakeholders. But is a small group of entrepreneurs in Venezeuala and tech companies going to change the administration's policy on Venezuela? I doubt it.
  - scandox 7y ago
    I'm not protesting, I was just providing exegesis

jessaustin 7y ago

...very oppressive economy. Citation requested. The problems of the Venezuelan economy are almost entirely due to sanctions.

dmix 7y ago
I've posted this a few times so apologies for the length, but it's always fun to hear people push this lie. Venezuela has experienced multiple severe food storages - even before the oil crisis ruined the spending spree (not that it stopped, Chavez just used loans instead) and well before this embargo by the US. During non-shortage times they enjoyed 1970s Russia style ration-like low variety, with half empty supermarkets > In 2005, Chávez announced the initiation of Venezuela's own "great leap forward", following the example of Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward.[32] An increase in shortages began to occur that year as 5% of items became unavailable according to the Central Bank of Venezuela.[33] In January 2008, 24.7% of goods were reported to be unavailable in Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela > Since the 1990s, food production in Venezuela has dropped continuously, with Hugo Chávez's Bolivarian government beginning to rely upon imported food using the country's then-large oil profits. (they have tons of farmland, the farmers were the ones who pushed the hardest for Chavez) > Such currency controls have been determined to be the cause of shortages according to many economists and other experts [25][26][27]. However, the Venezuelan government blamed other entities such as the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela Much of the policies targeting the rich to help the poor completely failed and everyone just got poorer: > The Chávez government overspent in social spending, however, and did not save enough money for any future economic difficulties.[6] On 31 March 2000, Chávez initiated policies that resulted with the Venezuelan government spending more than it received as oil prices began to rise.[40] Poverty in Venezuela began increasing going into the 2010s.[41] During Chávez's campaign before the 2012 presidential election, he tripled Venezuela's deficit while on a "spending spree".[42] In 2014 El Universal reported that in the previous five years that included years under Chávez's policies, purchasing power for those with minimum wage jobs had dramatically decreased compared to other countries in the region, supposedly due to the high inflation rate and the multiple devaluations of Venezuela's currency. [authors comment: this being the consequences of mass debt and little value to replace it, clearly the west made them do it!]. The only country that goes on a massive spending spree for the poor and makes them poorer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Ch... Their entirely centralized economic system has long been busting at the seems. Besides from a few dictators almost no foreign investment comes in because they keep robbing the "evil capitalists" of their entire business, creating a byzantine system of price controls to keep things 'cheaper' (lol) and administrative controls at both the industry and company level: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Venezuela_historic_inflation_index_and_oil_revenue.png/1280px-Venezuela_historic_inflation_index_and_oil_revenue.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Ve... Of course they've continuously blamed a grand western conspiracy for all of their problems since the early 2000s (a few yrs after the previous economic production kept things afloat temporarily, but after reality hit). But that's been the automatic excuse for a long list of other failed states like Nicaragua, Soviet Russia, etc so it's not surprising even when its 50% true. No one forced them to do disastrous price controls, scared away all of their smart people, and ruined every industry they centralized. When you threaten to shoot people who cross a border to buy fruits and vegetables something is seriously wrong. Keep in mind this a country that would otherwise be the richest per capita in the region had they followed traditional economic policies. Nigeria will soon pass them in GDP per capita.If Maduro stays the future doesn't look bright: https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/371876/gross-domestic-product-gdp-per-capita-in-venezuela.jpg https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/371876/gross-domestic-pro... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Venezuela_Oil_Reserves.png?1567393748945 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Venezuel... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oi... (VZ is #1) Finally: Iran (which has 80M people vs 31M in VZ) = $18,504/GDP per capita. Iraq = $5,165/per. Venezuela = $2k/GDP per capita. Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait, take your pick all have higher per capita GDP. I wonder what they did differently....

perl4ever 7y ago

It seems to me that it's pretty common for Facebook to be described as one of the most evil organizations in the world, or as totally useless, so when someone talks about access as a human right, I sort of lose the thread of why everybody hates them. I think I am incapable of hating any entity that cannot act in an acceptable manner as a matter of logic.

Buge 7y ago

>a search engine that doesn't exist yet If you want to stop something, it's easiest to stop it before it exists. Otherwise you have to overcome the status quo, which is hard.