3 ms·

> Whatever Americans want or not, they have the face the fact that most countries don't play "fair" and if they have the chance they will wipe the US as soon as

> Whatever Americans want or not, they have the face the fact that most countries don't play "fair" and if they have the chance they will wipe the US as soon as possible. Whatever <US enemies> want or not, they have the face the fact that the US don't play "fair" and if they have the chance they will wipe the <US enemies> as soon as possible.

merpnderp 7y ago
If Iran had the military advantage that the US currently presents, how much restraint could you expect? And yet the US chose not to retaliate against Iran this June because any retaliation would likely kill people - that killing people over the loss of a machine wasn't appropriate.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  I think it's a factor of the relative way of how things play out. For instance, even America could not nuke Somalia. It's less of a factor of the individuals at play and more about the way the power structures are holding right now. I would imagine a more militarily-powerful Iran would be differently shaped as well.
- dkersten 7y ago
  Many of the US's enemies hate the US, in my opinion, as a consequence of previous US meddling. The CIA have been known to topple democratically-elected governments in the middle east in order to install a pro-US-interests dictator, until they're no longer convenient, then war. I'm not saying that the US are the only ones that do this, of course, but I feel like Iran might be more friendly if the US hadn't meddled in middle-eastern affairs for so much of the previous century.
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    This is such a simple viewpoint and not supported by much evidence beyond seeing the meme loosely thrown around message boards. For example the Islamists supported the "coup" of Mosaddeq(quotes because he was constitutionally dismissed but refused, making him the one who overthrew the extant government, not the shah or the US) because he was not actively working towards an Islamic government. Maybe a more correct thing to say would be that America's enemies hate what America stands for and don't want their country to become more like America. But that work is usually done by independent natives who simply see the benefit of the American way of life, not necessarily from the US directly sticking their fingers in the affairs of other states. Look at the white revolution in Iran, which was instituted solely by the Shah without any "persuasion" from the Americans. This helped foment the Islamic revolution far more than any American/Anglo actions from the 1950s, and was what Khomeni hated so much. What did it do? : > It consisted of several elements, including land reform, sale of some state-owned factories to finance this land reform, construction of an expanded road, rail, and air network, a number of dam and irrigation projects, the eradication of diseases such as malaria, the encouragement and support of industrial growth, enfranchisement of women, nationalization of forests and pastures, formation of literacy and health corps for rural isolated areas, and institution of profit sharing schemes for workers in industry. In the 1960s and 1970s, the Shah sought to develop a more independent foreign policy and established working relationships with the Soviet Union and eastern European nations. In subsequent decades, per capita income for Iranians skyrocketed, and oil revenue-fueled an enormous increase in state funding for industrial development projects
dxbydt 7y ago
It runs both ways, yes. In the forward direction, most countries don't play fair and if they have the chance they will wipe out the US as soon as possible. In the other direction, the US doesn't play fair either and will do the same exact thing. So ? That's just realpolitik. Why this hypocrisy to urgently flag & kill the privilege of the GP. He has a point. Zoom out a bit. Levandowski walking out of Alphabet into Uber is the same story as Aleynikov walking out of Goldman Sachs into Teza is the same story as Stanford hiring Nobel economists from UChicago is the same story as Chinese students studying nuclear engineering at US universities is the same story as Bangaldeshi students studying atomic engg in Indian universities as whatever story take your pick that fits this trope. People move & they carry stuff with them. Ain't fair but that's life. Can't prosecute every single person, so you try to make an example out of the big fish. But for every big fish out there, there's a whole school of little fish swimming covertly doing the same exact thing. Its just a matter of scale. This needless persuasion to delve deeply into every nook & corner of a cogent argument as though it is some programmatic API & you've discovered some edge case where the unit test barfs...this bloodthirsty impulse isn't going to hold you in good stead. Nuance is awesome, but big picture clarifies as well. Everything isn't about programming.

merpnderp 7y ago

If Iran had the military advantage that the US currently presents, how much restraint could you expect? And yet the US chose not to retaliate against Iran this June because any retaliation would likely kill people - that killing people over the loss of a machine wasn't appropriate.

scarejunba 7y ago
I think it's a factor of the relative way of how things play out. For instance, even America could not nuke Somalia. It's less of a factor of the individuals at play and more about the way the power structures are holding right now. I would imagine a more militarily-powerful Iran would be differently shaped as well.
dkersten 7y ago
Many of the US's enemies hate the US, in my opinion, as a consequence of previous US meddling. The CIA have been known to topple democratically-elected governments in the middle east in order to install a pro-US-interests dictator, until they're no longer convenient, then war. I'm not saying that the US are the only ones that do this, of course, but I feel like Iran might be more friendly if the US hadn't meddled in middle-eastern affairs for so much of the previous century.
- oh_sigh 7y ago
  This is such a simple viewpoint and not supported by much evidence beyond seeing the meme loosely thrown around message boards. For example the Islamists supported the "coup" of Mosaddeq(quotes because he was constitutionally dismissed but refused, making him the one who overthrew the extant government, not the shah or the US) because he was not actively working towards an Islamic government. Maybe a more correct thing to say would be that America's enemies hate what America stands for and don't want their country to become more like America. But that work is usually done by independent natives who simply see the benefit of the American way of life, not necessarily from the US directly sticking their fingers in the affairs of other states. Look at the white revolution in Iran, which was instituted solely by the Shah without any "persuasion" from the Americans. This helped foment the Islamic revolution far more than any American/Anglo actions from the 1950s, and was what Khomeni hated so much. What did it do? : > It consisted of several elements, including land reform, sale of some state-owned factories to finance this land reform, construction of an expanded road, rail, and air network, a number of dam and irrigation projects, the eradication of diseases such as malaria, the encouragement and support of industrial growth, enfranchisement of women, nationalization of forests and pastures, formation of literacy and health corps for rural isolated areas, and institution of profit sharing schemes for workers in industry. In the 1960s and 1970s, the Shah sought to develop a more independent foreign policy and established working relationships with the Soviet Union and eastern European nations. In subsequent decades, per capita income for Iranians skyrocketed, and oil revenue-fueled an enormous increase in state funding for industrial development projects

dxbydt 7y ago

It runs both ways, yes. In the forward direction, most countries don't play fair and if they have the chance they will wipe out the US as soon as possible. In the other direction, the US doesn't play fair either and will do the same exact thing. So ? That's just realpolitik. Why this hypocrisy to urgently flag & kill the privilege of the GP. He has a point. Zoom out a bit. Levandowski walking out of Alphabet into Uber is the same story as Aleynikov walking out of Goldman Sachs into Teza is the same story as Stanford hiring Nobel economists from UChicago is the same story as Chinese students studying nuclear engineering at US universities is the same story as Bangaldeshi students studying atomic engg in Indian universities as whatever story take your pick that fits this trope. People move & they carry stuff with them. Ain't fair but that's life. Can't prosecute every single person, so you try to make an example out of the big fish. But for every big fish out there, there's a whole school of little fish swimming covertly doing the same exact thing. Its just a matter of scale. This needless persuasion to delve deeply into every nook & corner of a cogent argument as though it is some programmatic API & you've discovered some edge case where the unit test barfs...this bloodthirsty impulse isn't going to hold you in good stead. Nuance is awesome, but big picture clarifies as well. Everything isn't about programming.