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> This raises some questions: why is Firefox usage going down, and what does Mozilla need to do to bring it back up? > How does an average user get started wit

> This raises some questions: why is Firefox usage going down, and what does Mozilla need to do to bring it back up? > How does an average user get started with Firefox? This misses the elephant in the room : the main reason Chrome is eating other browsers is that Google is putting its advertising might behind it. You know that little "want a better browser" pop-up displayed on Google's search engine? That's an absolute killer for other browsers.

LoSboccacc 7y ago
not entirely true. firefox has solved a lot of startup and other performance issues, but the core rendering engine still lags when confronted with heavy loads, just a scrollable div of a couple dozen large images is enough to make it stutter seconds at time while they load and render, sure it's partly a developer issue for not using thumbnail in the listing, but chrome shows them all with zero lag. stating that the only reason chrome is ahead is because advertising is disingenuous: firefox only started catching up with them only in the last three-four years performance wise and the gap it's still there.
- Dragory 7y ago
  just a scrollable div of a couple dozen large images is enough to make it stutter seconds at time while they load and render I might be wrong, but with WebRender, isn't scrolling now done asynchronously so it doesn't stutter while things are loading? I certainly haven't experienced any scroll stutter since I turned it on.
  - majewsky 7y ago
    WebRender is not really used by Firefox yet. They're currently rolling it out to some very narrow sets of end users.
  - pcwalton 7y ago
    Scrolling has been async for many years, both with WebRender and without it.
- danielscrubs 7y ago
  Chrome lags on some webpages that Firefox don’t and vice versa. Overall I get a smoother experience on Firefox but ymmv.
luckylion 7y ago
> That's an absolute killer for other browsers. I'm not so sure about that. First of all, most "normal" people I know don't actually know what a browser is ("open your browser" - "my what?" - "... open the internet" - "ohh, okay!") nor which one they are using. I've never had anyone ask for help in switching browsers - unless something is seriously wrong with the one they have, they don't see the alternatives, and most users aren't adventurous, they don't want to mess with their computers "just to take a look".
- Grue3 7y ago
  Google Chrome is bundled with a lot of freeware apps and the user needs to uncheck a checkbox to avoid it being installed as a default browser. That's literally how it got current market share, along with being heavily advertised on google.com.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Makes sense, and works well with my experience that users don't really care or know what they are using. If the extent of customization is your bookmarks, being converted to a happy chrome user isn't hard. If it's more than that, a coerced install is probably not going to make you switch. But for most people, they won't really notice a difference between Chrome and Firefox in their daily usage.
- quantummkv 7y ago
  Let me tell you about a fascinating anecdote that happened to me a few years ago. My grandfather bought a new laptop. I set it up with firefox and saved his common sites (gmail, facebook, etc) to the new tab page so that he dosen't have to do anything else to open them. A month later I get a call from him asking about why he is unable to find gmail and facebook. What happened is that my grandpa ended up with google chrome on his machine, which obviously did not have the pinned sites on the front page. Here's the real kicker - He does not know the difference between about "firefox" and "chrome" and browsers, nor he did not install any other app that bundled google chrome with it. He did not go around adventuring with his browsers. He was literally baited by google into installing chrome in a completely sneaky and underhanded way. How? Through the front page ads.
mamon 7y ago
>> that little "want a better browser" pop-up displayed on Google's search engine? I actually do not know what you're talking about. Been using Firefox for the last few years and haven't seen this pop-up once.
- lucb1e 7y ago
  As another Firefox user, I know the pop up very well. Not even the results page where people at distracted, it's on the actual Google homepage (as well as other places). Abusing monopoly in one market to monopolize another.
  - mamon 7y ago
    Is it possible that this is somehow forbidden by EU law, that's why me, being EU citizen, never encountered it?
    - detaro 7y ago
      running an adblocker?
      - lucb1e 7y ago
        Now that you mention it, I think I remember an ad blocker indeed blocks those ads.
        detaro 7y ago
        It would be an incomplete adblocker if it didn't :D
    - lucb1e 7y ago
      I'm an EU citizen as well.
- judge2020 7y ago
  For reference, booting up Windows Sandbox and loading google: https://i.judge.sh/any/Diamond/WindowsSandbox_hE75Eaor7Z.png https://i.judge.sh/any/Diamond/WindowsSandbox_hE75Eaor7Z.png
mda 7y ago
It was also an enormous improvement over other browsers on performance, usability and security perspective. People are not mindless drones, they use it because they see a benefit not because of an ad.
- omaranto 7y ago
  I use Firefox on Linux and (current) Edge on Windows, in both cases because they feel faster than Chrome (which I used to use when it felt faster). I still use Chrome on my phone because I can't uninstall it. :)
  - zamadatix 7y ago
    You should be able to disable system packaged apps unless you are running an absolutely ancient version of Android. It's the same effect as uninstalling except it keeps the original package in storage in case you re-enable. Firefox on Linux doesn't have GPU acceleration out of the box nor GPU video decoding (at all still?). Firefox on Android has it's own litany of issues (though to be fixed in their new version soon™). Edge was actually pretty great on Windows but everywhere else it wasn't Edge and it's going away to come back as a Chromium clone shortly anyways.
    - omaranto 7y ago
      Exactly, disabled apps still take up space. So on a limited space device I just use what's there. I haven't tried the new version of Edge based on Chromium, but my guess is that it'll be as slow as Chrome. :(

LoSboccacc 7y ago

not entirely true. firefox has solved a lot of startup and other performance issues, but the core rendering engine still lags when confronted with heavy loads, just a scrollable div of a couple dozen large images is enough to make it stutter seconds at time while they load and render, sure it's partly a developer issue for not using thumbnail in the listing, but chrome shows them all with zero lag. stating that the only reason chrome is ahead is because advertising is disingenuous: firefox only started catching up with them only in the last three-four years performance wise and the gap it's still there.

Dragory 7y ago
just a scrollable div of a couple dozen large images is enough to make it stutter seconds at time while they load and render I might be wrong, but with WebRender, isn't scrolling now done asynchronously so it doesn't stutter while things are loading? I certainly haven't experienced any scroll stutter since I turned it on.
- majewsky 7y ago
  WebRender is not really used by Firefox yet. They're currently rolling it out to some very narrow sets of end users.
- pcwalton 7y ago
  Scrolling has been async for many years, both with WebRender and without it.
danielscrubs 7y ago
Chrome lags on some webpages that Firefox don’t and vice versa. Overall I get a smoother experience on Firefox but ymmv.

luckylion 7y ago

> That's an absolute killer for other browsers. I'm not so sure about that. First of all, most "normal" people I know don't actually know what a browser is ("open your browser" - "my what?" - "... open the internet" - "ohh, okay!") nor which one they are using. I've never had anyone ask for help in switching browsers - unless something is seriously wrong with the one they have, they don't see the alternatives, and most users aren't adventurous, they don't want to mess with their computers "just to take a look".

Grue3 7y ago
Google Chrome is bundled with a lot of freeware apps and the user needs to uncheck a checkbox to avoid it being installed as a default browser. That's literally how it got current market share, along with being heavily advertised on google.com.
- luckylion 7y ago
  Makes sense, and works well with my experience that users don't really care or know what they are using. If the extent of customization is your bookmarks, being converted to a happy chrome user isn't hard. If it's more than that, a coerced install is probably not going to make you switch. But for most people, they won't really notice a difference between Chrome and Firefox in their daily usage.
quantummkv 7y ago
Let me tell you about a fascinating anecdote that happened to me a few years ago. My grandfather bought a new laptop. I set it up with firefox and saved his common sites (gmail, facebook, etc) to the new tab page so that he dosen't have to do anything else to open them. A month later I get a call from him asking about why he is unable to find gmail and facebook. What happened is that my grandpa ended up with google chrome on his machine, which obviously did not have the pinned sites on the front page. Here's the real kicker - He does not know the difference between about "firefox" and "chrome" and browsers, nor he did not install any other app that bundled google chrome with it. He did not go around adventuring with his browsers. He was literally baited by google into installing chrome in a completely sneaky and underhanded way. How? Through the front page ads.

mamon 7y ago

>> that little "want a better browser" pop-up displayed on Google's search engine? I actually do not know what you're talking about. Been using Firefox for the last few years and haven't seen this pop-up once.

lucb1e 7y ago
As another Firefox user, I know the pop up very well. Not even the results page where people at distracted, it's on the actual Google homepage (as well as other places). Abusing monopoly in one market to monopolize another.
- mamon 7y ago
  Is it possible that this is somehow forbidden by EU law, that's why me, being EU citizen, never encountered it?
  - detaro 7y ago
    running an adblocker?
    - lucb1e 7y ago
      Now that you mention it, I think I remember an ad blocker indeed blocks those ads.
      - detaro 7y ago
        It would be an incomplete adblocker if it didn't :D
  - lucb1e 7y ago
    I'm an EU citizen as well.
judge2020 7y ago
For reference, booting up Windows Sandbox and loading google: https://i.judge.sh/any/Diamond/WindowsSandbox_hE75Eaor7Z.png https://i.judge.sh/any/Diamond/WindowsSandbox_hE75Eaor7Z.png

mda 7y ago

It was also an enormous improvement over other browsers on performance, usability and security perspective. People are not mindless drones, they use it because they see a benefit not because of an ad.

omaranto 7y ago
I use Firefox on Linux and (current) Edge on Windows, in both cases because they feel faster than Chrome (which I used to use when it felt faster). I still use Chrome on my phone because I can't uninstall it. :)
- zamadatix 7y ago
  You should be able to disable system packaged apps unless you are running an absolutely ancient version of Android. It's the same effect as uninstalling except it keeps the original package in storage in case you re-enable. Firefox on Linux doesn't have GPU acceleration out of the box nor GPU video decoding (at all still?). Firefox on Android has it's own litany of issues (though to be fixed in their new version soon™). Edge was actually pretty great on Windows but everywhere else it wasn't Edge and it's going away to come back as a Chromium clone shortly anyways.
  - omaranto 7y ago
    Exactly, disabled apps still take up space. So on a limited space device I just use what's there. I haven't tried the new version of Edge based on Chromium, but my guess is that it'll be as slow as Chrome. :(