4 ms·

It's pretty easy to work out what they actually saw from the words used to describe them. A hypercube rotation is a 4d object projected into 3 dimensions. Nothi

It's pretty easy to work out what they actually saw from the words used to describe them. A hypercube rotation is a 4d object projected into 3 dimensions. Nothing extraordinary at all about that.

mirimir 7y ago
Yes, it was a visual hallucination, and so constrained to two dimensions plus perspective. But I clearly recall the sense that I was seeing a 2D projection of a higher-dimensional image.
- p1mrx 7y ago
  Yeah, visualizing 2D/3D shapes is not extraordinary. "The sense" of an extra dimension is meaningless woo, unless someone with sufficient mathematical experience is able to observe consistent properties of a shape's higher-dimensional structure.
  - numakerg 7y ago
    It would have to be higher dimensional properties observed by someone who doesn't have mathematical experience relayed to and confirmed by someone who does.
  - anon9001 7y ago
    Obviously anything experiential can be dismissed as "meaningless woo", but as someone who's done a fair amount of LSD and is a lifelong skeptic, it's an unmistakable experience that the hallucinations are taking place in a higher ordered space. To add a little clarity to what the hallucinations look like, checkout what people describe here: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Geometry https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Geometry The process of hallucinating on LSD feels like you're sliding a window through a higher dimensional structure projected onto a 2D plane. LSD hallucinations aren't "3D" in the same way that mushroom hallucinations are. LSD feels like infinite 2D planes stacked on top of each other, rather than a 3D, if that makes any sense. If you pause to meditate and quiet your mind, you can get the hallucinations to briefly stall or at least retain their current character. If you focus on one area and let your mind explore the hallucinating you're looking at and just sort of "let it happen", or perhaps change music/environments/stimulus, you can push the hallucinations in a new direction. The 2D nature of the hallucinations and the lens-like focusing mechanic does give the impression that you're viewing a projection of a higher dimensional space. I understand it sounds like woo, but the experience is remarkably similar to the feeling of playing with something like http://4dtoys.com/ http://4dtoys.com/ and I can very much understand what mirimir is describing. I don't have any science-based understanding of how the brain works, but maybe I've added enough color that you can understand what the experience feels like.
    - mistermann 7y ago
      I hope some day to encounter a situation where a non-psychedelic-experienced person lecturing the experienced about how silly they are agrees to "put their money where their mouth is" so to speak and actually try it out for themselves, and then return to the previous argument and reflect upon it with the new insight they've gained. Of course they wouldn't suddenly "get it" entirely like in the movies, but I think it would have to be somewhat interesting to see their reaction to going from absolute confidence in their perceptions and knowledge, to.....well, whatever you call the state one is in after having had such experiences. I know for me, even being fairly experienced, returning to a psychedelic state is rather shocking....it seems like it is literally impossible to store even remotely proper memories of it in one's mind, at least mine. Ineffable doesn't seem like the right word for it.
      - vinceguidry 7y ago
        I have a lot of meditation experience, and deep trance states are also extremely hard to hold on to. Meditating on the phenomena has revealed that it's a combination of unfamiliarity with the subject matter along with the sheer complexity of the experience that leads to inability to remember all the details. People also tend to forget that ordinary life is crazy complicated in its own right. We don't have trouble remembering it because our brains have tuned itself to compress and operate on those kinds of experiences symbolically. But since we don't have appropriate symbolic representation for 'deep experience' it gets shoved out of mind before we can form memories.
        mistermann 7y ago
        > But since we don't have appropriate symbolic representation, our (or, most people's at least) mind is literally unable to store the experience. This is my armchair theory on it. I imagine someone smarter than I has speculated on it, but I've yet to encounter anything on the subject. I'd also like to read anything on comparisons of the two from people who are experienced in both, although I suspect interactions between the two may skew things a bit.
      - Faark 7y ago

It's pretty easy to work out what they actually saw from the words used to describe them. A hypercube rotation is a 4d object projected into 3 dimensions. Nothing extraordinary at all about that.

mirimir 7y ago

Yes, it was a visual hallucination, and so constrained to two dimensions plus perspective. But I clearly recall the sense that I was seeing a 2D projection of a higher-dimensional image.

p1mrx 7y ago
Yeah, visualizing 2D/3D shapes is not extraordinary. "The sense" of an extra dimension is meaningless woo, unless someone with sufficient mathematical experience is able to observe consistent properties of a shape's higher-dimensional structure.
- numakerg 7y ago
  It would have to be higher dimensional properties observed by someone who doesn't have mathematical experience relayed to and confirmed by someone who does.
- anon9001 7y ago
  Obviously anything experiential can be dismissed as "meaningless woo", but as someone who's done a fair amount of LSD and is a lifelong skeptic, it's an unmistakable experience that the hallucinations are taking place in a higher ordered space. To add a little clarity to what the hallucinations look like, checkout what people describe here: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Geometry https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Geometry The process of hallucinating on LSD feels like you're sliding a window through a higher dimensional structure projected onto a 2D plane. LSD hallucinations aren't "3D" in the same way that mushroom hallucinations are. LSD feels like infinite 2D planes stacked on top of each other, rather than a 3D, if that makes any sense. If you pause to meditate and quiet your mind, you can get the hallucinations to briefly stall or at least retain their current character. If you focus on one area and let your mind explore the hallucinating you're looking at and just sort of "let it happen", or perhaps change music/environments/stimulus, you can push the hallucinations in a new direction. The 2D nature of the hallucinations and the lens-like focusing mechanic does give the impression that you're viewing a projection of a higher dimensional space. I understand it sounds like woo, but the experience is remarkably similar to the feeling of playing with something like http://4dtoys.com/ http://4dtoys.com/ and I can very much understand what mirimir is describing. I don't have any science-based understanding of how the brain works, but maybe I've added enough color that you can understand what the experience feels like.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    I hope some day to encounter a situation where a non-psychedelic-experienced person lecturing the experienced about how silly they are agrees to "put their money where their mouth is" so to speak and actually try it out for themselves, and then return to the previous argument and reflect upon it with the new insight they've gained. Of course they wouldn't suddenly "get it" entirely like in the movies, but I think it would have to be somewhat interesting to see their reaction to going from absolute confidence in their perceptions and knowledge, to.....well, whatever you call the state one is in after having had such experiences. I know for me, even being fairly experienced, returning to a psychedelic state is rather shocking....it seems like it is literally impossible to store even remotely proper memories of it in one's mind, at least mine. Ineffable doesn't seem like the right word for it.
    - vinceguidry 7y ago
      I have a lot of meditation experience, and deep trance states are also extremely hard to hold on to. Meditating on the phenomena has revealed that it's a combination of unfamiliarity with the subject matter along with the sheer complexity of the experience that leads to inability to remember all the details. People also tend to forget that ordinary life is crazy complicated in its own right. We don't have trouble remembering it because our brains have tuned itself to compress and operate on those kinds of experiences symbolically. But since we don't have appropriate symbolic representation for 'deep experience' it gets shoved out of mind before we can form memories.
      - mistermann 7y ago
        > But since we don't have appropriate symbolic representation, our (or, most people's at least) mind is literally unable to store the experience. This is my armchair theory on it. I imagine someone smarter than I has speculated on it, but I've yet to encounter anything on the subject. I'd also like to read anything on comparisons of the two from people who are experienced in both, although I suspect interactions between the two may skew things a bit.
    - Faark 7y ago