5 ms·

Brain food: a nutrient vegans lack

34 points by cyunker 7y ago

annadane 7y ago
Can vegans, then, take a pill that provides this?
- bootlooped 7y ago
  Amazon sells many choline supplements. I haven't at all looked into their bioavailability or efficacy.
vsajip 7y ago
Response by the UK Vegan Society: https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/news/statement-media-reports-about-choline-and-vegan-diets https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/news/statement-media-...
daneel_w 7y ago
Choline is very common in vitamin B12 supplements, which most vegans - assuming they aren't the poorly educated lifestyle type of vegan - know they need to supplement unless they want to make algae and seaweed staples of their kitchen.
- ficklepickle 7y ago
  Floradix FTW. That stuff saved my life.
esotericn 7y ago
Does anyone else find this obsessive attitude towards vegan/vegetarian diets and their supposed lack of nutrition to be thinking about the wrong problem? We evolved over a long period of time to basically eat whatever we could hunt and find. Depending on location that might have included meat or meat might have been very hard to come across indeed. It's unclear to me that we'd have such a strong dependency on specific foods. I think for the most part what happens is that it's actually way too easy in modern life to hyperfocus on a specific subset of nutrients to the exclusion of others. Someone could go days at a time eating bread and potatoes alone with various condiments/spices for example and eventually get ill because then they would of course be missing something. A lot of the vegans I know, myself included, tend to bias towards that, because like, roast potatoes are gorgeous innit. Does that make sense at all? Basically that, if you had some sort of like, randomized stock cupboard (I don't know how the sampling would work), you'd be fine in almost any circumstance even if you deliberately excluded certain things? B12 is apparently difficult in modern times primarily because we clean things. My understanding was that earthy foods or a berry you eat from a tree might have natural B12. So maybe we just need to stop being... err.. picky eaters? (exclude meat, but don't _choose_ your meals as much)? The way the media makes it sound, before agriculture almost every human must have been chronically malnourished. It doesn't sound like a legitimate evolutionary path.
- hellbanTHIS 7y ago
  With the exception of fish, for probably a very, very long time we ate a lot of fish.
- jvagner 7y ago
  For every “vegan diet problems” article out there, there should be a “fiber deficiency” article written for people eating a SAD.
- scottLobster 7y ago
  I think it's just a backlash towards the more militant vegans who make all the noise. Veganism predicates itself on moral grounds (no animal products period, because hurting animals/climate change/etc), not nutritional ones like vegetarianism, and as with any moral cause some people decide to get all Deus Vult! about it. So as a response the opposition points out that veganism "morally" excludes certain nutrients as a way to call it an unhealthy/stupid lifestyle. And there's technically a legitimate point to it IMO, maybe being pure vegan is nutritionally sub-optimal compared to some other options. Maybe kids shouldn't be vegan for ideal health. At the very least you have to seriously worry about various nutrients that you don't have to worry about with a less restrictive diet. But IMO that's like saying people into restoring/driving antique cars are driving sub-optimal vehicles. Yeah it's technically true, but that's their lifestyle/hobby so who cares? And "malnourished" depends on your definition. It's no coincidence that we started growing taller and having more babies with the advent of agriculture. It's like putting a plant under a grow-lamp. Is the plant fueled by natural if imperfect sunlight "malnourished" relative to the plant under the grow-lamp?
  - esotericn 7y ago
    I think it's really difficult to quantify sub-optimal in this context because it requires the identification of like, actual serious benefits or bad effects, as you say re defining 'malnourishment'. If you could show that, for example, on average a meat eater had a higher IQ than a vegan (or vice versa), or is stronger or something, and you somehow exclude the confounding effects (e.g. vegans in the West are generally wealthier and more educated than the average) that'd be a solid example. A lot of the time it seems to come down to things like short-term digestive effects or specific deficiencies. The car example is interesting. I wrote a reply about this earlier actually. I recently went from a 1998 banger to a 2019 shiny fancy thing. They pretty much do exactly the same thing. The 1998 car was theoretically less reliable but in practice it never skipped a beat. I mean, it's less shiny, makes more noise, pollutes more. But 'sub-optimal' - I mean it really depends on your metric. In terms of going places it was the same.
larssorenson 7y ago
As a vegan who tracks their nutrients and vitamins pretty closely, I do not have trouble getting enough choline. The big hits in the vegetable world are: soybeans, cauliflower, potatoes, peanuts, kidney beans, quinoa.... and on and on. There's really no difficulty if you eat a sufficiently diverse diet.
- dahx4Eev 7y ago
  What’s the recommended way to track? Is it done by blood tests?
rosybox 7y ago
Is this the entire article or this an excerpt for an article hidden behind a paywall? I can't seem to access whatever this is except for a paragraph and an incognito window isn't helping.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
zenlot 7y ago
I am always surprised when I see that vegans/plant-based dieters may be lacking one or more nutrients in their well balanced diet. Most of the time you should only be concerned about getting all vital nutrients if you're following non plant-based diet.
- jtms 7y ago
  This is a flawed line of reasoning given that the overwhelming majority of meat eaters also eat a significant percentage of their calories from plants. It is referred to as a balanced diet for a reason.
  - zenlot 7y ago
    Majority of meat eaters are into fast and processed food. Whoever considers that a balanced diet has a benefit out of it. Enough to look at obesity statistics across the world. Majority considered that prescribing opioids was for the health benefits too.
  - robotron 7y ago
    Anecdotally, most people who eat meat-based diets really downplay the role of vegetables in their diet. Eating meat is more masculine and the only food worthy of focusing on. Vegetables are relegated to dressing up meats or acting as half-forgotten side dishes. Disclaimer: I am not vegetarian/vegan but eat one or two meatless meals per day.

34 points by cyunker 7y ago

annadane 7y ago

Can vegans, then, take a pill that provides this?

bootlooped 7y ago
Amazon sells many choline supplements. I haven't at all looked into their bioavailability or efficacy.

vsajip 7y ago

Response by the UK Vegan Society: https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/news/statement-media-reports-about-choline-and-vegan-diets https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/news/statement-media-...

daneel_w 7y ago

Choline is very common in vitamin B12 supplements, which most vegans - assuming they aren't the poorly educated lifestyle type of vegan - know they need to supplement unless they want to make algae and seaweed staples of their kitchen.

ficklepickle 7y ago
Floradix FTW. That stuff saved my life.

esotericn 7y ago

Does anyone else find this obsessive attitude towards vegan/vegetarian diets and their supposed lack of nutrition to be thinking about the wrong problem? We evolved over a long period of time to basically eat whatever we could hunt and find. Depending on location that might have included meat or meat might have been very hard to come across indeed. It's unclear to me that we'd have such a strong dependency on specific foods. I think for the most part what happens is that it's actually way too easy in modern life to hyperfocus on a specific subset of nutrients to the exclusion of others. Someone could go days at a time eating bread and potatoes alone with various condiments/spices for example and eventually get ill because then they would of course be missing something. A lot of the vegans I know, myself included, tend to bias towards that, because like, roast potatoes are gorgeous innit. Does that make sense at all? Basically that, if you had some sort of like, randomized stock cupboard (I don't know how the sampling would work), you'd be fine in almost any circumstance even if you deliberately excluded certain things? B12 is apparently difficult in modern times primarily because we clean things. My understanding was that earthy foods or a berry you eat from a tree might have natural B12. So maybe we just need to stop being... err.. picky eaters? (exclude meat, but don't _choose_ your meals as much)? The way the media makes it sound, before agriculture almost every human must have been chronically malnourished. It doesn't sound like a legitimate evolutionary path.

hellbanTHIS 7y ago
With the exception of fish, for probably a very, very long time we ate a lot of fish.
jvagner 7y ago
For every “vegan diet problems” article out there, there should be a “fiber deficiency” article written for people eating a SAD.
scottLobster 7y ago
I think it's just a backlash towards the more militant vegans who make all the noise. Veganism predicates itself on moral grounds (no animal products period, because hurting animals/climate change/etc), not nutritional ones like vegetarianism, and as with any moral cause some people decide to get all Deus Vult! about it. So as a response the opposition points out that veganism "morally" excludes certain nutrients as a way to call it an unhealthy/stupid lifestyle. And there's technically a legitimate point to it IMO, maybe being pure vegan is nutritionally sub-optimal compared to some other options. Maybe kids shouldn't be vegan for ideal health. At the very least you have to seriously worry about various nutrients that you don't have to worry about with a less restrictive diet. But IMO that's like saying people into restoring/driving antique cars are driving sub-optimal vehicles. Yeah it's technically true, but that's their lifestyle/hobby so who cares? And "malnourished" depends on your definition. It's no coincidence that we started growing taller and having more babies with the advent of agriculture. It's like putting a plant under a grow-lamp. Is the plant fueled by natural if imperfect sunlight "malnourished" relative to the plant under the grow-lamp?
- esotericn 7y ago
  I think it's really difficult to quantify sub-optimal in this context because it requires the identification of like, actual serious benefits or bad effects, as you say re defining 'malnourishment'. If you could show that, for example, on average a meat eater had a higher IQ than a vegan (or vice versa), or is stronger or something, and you somehow exclude the confounding effects (e.g. vegans in the West are generally wealthier and more educated than the average) that'd be a solid example. A lot of the time it seems to come down to things like short-term digestive effects or specific deficiencies. The car example is interesting. I wrote a reply about this earlier actually. I recently went from a 1998 banger to a 2019 shiny fancy thing. They pretty much do exactly the same thing. The 1998 car was theoretically less reliable but in practice it never skipped a beat. I mean, it's less shiny, makes more noise, pollutes more. But 'sub-optimal' - I mean it really depends on your metric. In terms of going places it was the same.

larssorenson 7y ago

As a vegan who tracks their nutrients and vitamins pretty closely, I do not have trouble getting enough choline. The big hits in the vegetable world are: soybeans, cauliflower, potatoes, peanuts, kidney beans, quinoa.... and on and on. There's really no difficulty if you eat a sufficiently diverse diet.

dahx4Eev 7y ago
What’s the recommended way to track? Is it done by blood tests?

rosybox 7y ago

Is this the entire article or this an excerpt for an article hidden behind a paywall? I can't seem to access whatever this is except for a paragraph and an incognito window isn't helping.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

zenlot 7y ago

I am always surprised when I see that vegans/plant-based dieters may be lacking one or more nutrients in their well balanced diet. Most of the time you should only be concerned about getting all vital nutrients if you're following non plant-based diet.

jtms 7y ago
This is a flawed line of reasoning given that the overwhelming majority of meat eaters also eat a significant percentage of their calories from plants. It is referred to as a balanced diet for a reason.
- zenlot 7y ago
  Majority of meat eaters are into fast and processed food. Whoever considers that a balanced diet has a benefit out of it. Enough to look at obesity statistics across the world. Majority considered that prescribing opioids was for the health benefits too.
- robotron 7y ago
  Anecdotally, most people who eat meat-based diets really downplay the role of vegetables in their diet. Eating meat is more masculine and the only food worthy of focusing on. Vegetables are relegated to dressing up meats or acting as half-forgotten side dishes. Disclaimer: I am not vegetarian/vegan but eat one or two meatless meals per day.