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The NYC tech scene has a ton of problems. One I encountered is recruiting good programmers: 1) Living in NYC is expensive and if you are struggling on a start

The NYC tech scene has a ton of problems. One I encountered is recruiting good programmers: 1) Living in NYC is expensive and if you are struggling on a startup you will see friends making several hundred dollars an hour as consultants. 2) Wall Street pays software developers a ton of money and then trains them on legacy technology and rewards them for having incredibly specialized skill sets (I worked with a brilliant programmer in NY who only wrote ".h" header C++ files. I mean that's all he ever did and made several hundred thousand a year.) 3) VC's in NY hate software developers and believe that business people should run everything. This is a deep prejudice, that comes from the finance people on Wall St. treating their technology people poorly. In NY finance companies I've seen incredibly talented programmers who make several hundred thousand a year who were forced to use up a vacation day if they went home early to check on their sick kids. I don't even understand why a company would pay people so well and then treat them like crap. 4) Software developers in NY don't understand the value of equity, they have no personal success stories to look at and are used to being paid huge sums of cash in bonuses. 5) I can say this from years of experience: In NYC being an investment banker or trader will get you laid, being an entrepreneur/programmer at a startup totally won't.

redthrowaway 16y ago
Even the tone of the article was dismissive of developers. "The previous revolution was all silicon and algorithms. This one's social". Tard.
- tristan_louis 16y ago
  In what way is it dismissive of developers? I'd love to hear.
  - redthrowaway 16y ago
    >While the technology world was long dominated by hardware and algorithms, the current phase (often referred to as “the social web”) is all about people. The current King of Social was started by a pretty damned anti-social guy. Running with a The Social Network analogy (I know, but bear with me), you seem to be implying that the next phase of innovation will be driven by Winlkevosses, not Zuckerbergs. That must be plainly false. Just because "social" is a nice buzz word these days does not mean that the people making these innovations are any more social than they used to be. The general tone of your article seems to be that there are business guys in New York, and business guys know business, and they'll just find some code monkeys to build their great ideas. You ignore, however, that all of the major innovations and the most successful startups have been mostly free from interference from business types until later in their development. Speaking plainly, the MBA who goes to a hacker conference with an idea for "the next Facebook", who "just needs a programmer" is a laughingstock. The hacker who builds the next Facebook, then gets funding while maintaining control, is a god. New York has MBAs, not hackers. That, of course, is a gross misrepresentation, as there's a great hacker community there, but they tend to leave and go west if they're interested in entrepreneurship. You claimed that Silicon Valley startups could learn a thing or two from NYC startups. I'd really like to see some examples of what you think NYC startups are doing better, beyond simply making money. Bot herders make money from spam and brokerage firms make money from sub-prime derivatives, but neither of those are particularly admirable. If you want to find where people are making cool things, you go to Silicon Valley (or MIT, or Carnegie Mellon, or Waterloo, etc). If you want to attract top talent, you build cool things. The genius hackers who will build the next Google or Facebook will come from one of the top tech schools, and will migrate towards one of those centers in order to work with other genius hackers. They will only bring on MBAs when the VCs force them too, and that really doesn't speak too highly of NYC's future as a hub of innovation.
    - tristan_louis 16y ago
      I beg to differ on your point. I honestly believe that what made Zuckerberg successful was his "exposure" to the social components. Wherever you are, if you're a geek, you're going to be a geek. But if you're in a city, you, as a programmer, will be impacted in small ways, allowing you to create apps that are more "social". The article covers a number of aspects and business is one. Maybe it ought to be clearer on the point of techies. My view is that techies are still essential to building solid apps but as we move in the "social" phase of the web, pure tech is not the only ingredient. There needs to be more in terms of user experience and in terms of understanding what social can be (as far as its potential). In order to do so, you need to be proactive about understanding the "normals". And opportunities to do so are higher in New York than they are in the valley. If you're surrounded by hackers, you will get a good understanding of hacker culture. But it will make it that much more difficult to understand what a secretary or banker or model are interested in. So it makes it that much more difficult to create products that are appealing outside of hacker circles. In New York, there isn't a choice in terms of learning about those other groups or not. We're all on top of each other so something as common as a subway ride creates some of that exposure. The fallacy I'm trying to break through is that New York doesn't have hackers. It does and the number of hackers is growing. And that's the reason for the warning I'm sounding (because end of day, the article is not a triumphant call but rather a call for both sides to bring their best game). NYC has a lot to learn from the valley in terms of fostering an engineering culture (its own engineering culture is just nascent) but the valley has a lot to learn about sectors outside of tech. I respectfully disagree that the next Google or Facebook will come from a top tech school. In fact, I'd warrant that the founders of that next big deal company are currently at work in some place none of us could imagine (like who would think that a kid from the midwest would come up with a successful web browser. Well, ask Marc Andreesen and I'm sure he'd be willing to make that bet :) ). The question is whether those kids will move to NYC or the valley and I'd venture that, in the future, NYC may be more attractive than the valley.
      - redthrowaway 16y ago
        Zuckerberg's exposure to "social components" was merely an extension of his attending a top [non-tech] school. I still think your argument about being surrounded by people somehow making you more suited to building a social app is weak. Like I said, I'll agree that New York has hackers. I'll stand by my assertion, however, that they tend to leave if they're looking to launch a startup. Especially given YC's dominance of the angel game and their requirement that successful applicants move to the valley. You could be right that the founders of the Next Big Thing are currently toiling away in obscurity, but I doubt it. There's a hacker mindset that's relatively adverse to large corporations. Also, while Andreesen may be a legitimate example, the game has changed significantly since the early 90s. There's a huge free-for-all right now in the startup biz, and it's all happening in the valley. Ultimately, however, we aren't talking about right now. We're talking about the future. What does it take to make a community? Talent, and the attraction thereof, sure. But it also takes culture. It takes a certain kind of zeitgeist, one which is friendly to irresponsible nerds who would rather shoot for gold than get a real job. New York simply doesn't have this culture. It's too conservative, too greedy. New York is the Mecca of the Almighty Dollar, and Silicon Valley is the Mecca of the Nerd. Barring some huge cultural shift, I don't see that changing.
tristan_louis 16y ago
1) ... and living in the valley isn't expensive. 2) ... and Google and Facebook are not doing this. 3) ... and that's why VCs like Fred Wilson continuously call for the city to attract and help develop more engineering talent. 4) That was true a decade ago. It's now changing. 5) If you're doing a startup to get laid, you've got the wrong priorities. BTW, all the points you make are mostly refuted in part on talent ( http://www.tnl.net/blog/2011/01/08/silicon-valley-vs-new-york-talent/ http://www.tnl.net/blog/2011/01/08/silicon-valley-vs-new-yor... ) in the series.

redthrowaway 16y ago

Even the tone of the article was dismissive of developers. "The previous revolution was all silicon and algorithms. This one's social". Tard.

tristan_louis 16y ago
In what way is it dismissive of developers? I'd love to hear.
- redthrowaway 16y ago
  >While the technology world was long dominated by hardware and algorithms, the current phase (often referred to as “the social web”) is all about people. The current King of Social was started by a pretty damned anti-social guy. Running with a The Social Network analogy (I know, but bear with me), you seem to be implying that the next phase of innovation will be driven by Winlkevosses, not Zuckerbergs. That must be plainly false. Just because "social" is a nice buzz word these days does not mean that the people making these innovations are any more social than they used to be. The general tone of your article seems to be that there are business guys in New York, and business guys know business, and they'll just find some code monkeys to build their great ideas. You ignore, however, that all of the major innovations and the most successful startups have been mostly free from interference from business types until later in their development. Speaking plainly, the MBA who goes to a hacker conference with an idea for "the next Facebook", who "just needs a programmer" is a laughingstock. The hacker who builds the next Facebook, then gets funding while maintaining control, is a god. New York has MBAs, not hackers. That, of course, is a gross misrepresentation, as there's a great hacker community there, but they tend to leave and go west if they're interested in entrepreneurship. You claimed that Silicon Valley startups could learn a thing or two from NYC startups. I'd really like to see some examples of what you think NYC startups are doing better, beyond simply making money. Bot herders make money from spam and brokerage firms make money from sub-prime derivatives, but neither of those are particularly admirable. If you want to find where people are making cool things, you go to Silicon Valley (or MIT, or Carnegie Mellon, or Waterloo, etc). If you want to attract top talent, you build cool things. The genius hackers who will build the next Google or Facebook will come from one of the top tech schools, and will migrate towards one of those centers in order to work with other genius hackers. They will only bring on MBAs when the VCs force them too, and that really doesn't speak too highly of NYC's future as a hub of innovation.
  - tristan_louis 16y ago
    I beg to differ on your point. I honestly believe that what made Zuckerberg successful was his "exposure" to the social components. Wherever you are, if you're a geek, you're going to be a geek. But if you're in a city, you, as a programmer, will be impacted in small ways, allowing you to create apps that are more "social". The article covers a number of aspects and business is one. Maybe it ought to be clearer on the point of techies. My view is that techies are still essential to building solid apps but as we move in the "social" phase of the web, pure tech is not the only ingredient. There needs to be more in terms of user experience and in terms of understanding what social can be (as far as its potential). In order to do so, you need to be proactive about understanding the "normals". And opportunities to do so are higher in New York than they are in the valley. If you're surrounded by hackers, you will get a good understanding of hacker culture. But it will make it that much more difficult to understand what a secretary or banker or model are interested in. So it makes it that much more difficult to create products that are appealing outside of hacker circles. In New York, there isn't a choice in terms of learning about those other groups or not. We're all on top of each other so something as common as a subway ride creates some of that exposure. The fallacy I'm trying to break through is that New York doesn't have hackers. It does and the number of hackers is growing. And that's the reason for the warning I'm sounding (because end of day, the article is not a triumphant call but rather a call for both sides to bring their best game). NYC has a lot to learn from the valley in terms of fostering an engineering culture (its own engineering culture is just nascent) but the valley has a lot to learn about sectors outside of tech. I respectfully disagree that the next Google or Facebook will come from a top tech school. In fact, I'd warrant that the founders of that next big deal company are currently at work in some place none of us could imagine (like who would think that a kid from the midwest would come up with a successful web browser. Well, ask Marc Andreesen and I'm sure he'd be willing to make that bet :) ). The question is whether those kids will move to NYC or the valley and I'd venture that, in the future, NYC may be more attractive than the valley.
    - redthrowaway 16y ago
      Zuckerberg's exposure to "social components" was merely an extension of his attending a top [non-tech] school. I still think your argument about being surrounded by people somehow making you more suited to building a social app is weak. Like I said, I'll agree that New York has hackers. I'll stand by my assertion, however, that they tend to leave if they're looking to launch a startup. Especially given YC's dominance of the angel game and their requirement that successful applicants move to the valley. You could be right that the founders of the Next Big Thing are currently toiling away in obscurity, but I doubt it. There's a hacker mindset that's relatively adverse to large corporations. Also, while Andreesen may be a legitimate example, the game has changed significantly since the early 90s. There's a huge free-for-all right now in the startup biz, and it's all happening in the valley. Ultimately, however, we aren't talking about right now. We're talking about the future. What does it take to make a community? Talent, and the attraction thereof, sure. But it also takes culture. It takes a certain kind of zeitgeist, one which is friendly to irresponsible nerds who would rather shoot for gold than get a real job. New York simply doesn't have this culture. It's too conservative, too greedy. New York is the Mecca of the Almighty Dollar, and Silicon Valley is the Mecca of the Nerd. Barring some huge cultural shift, I don't see that changing.

tristan_louis 16y ago

1) ... and living in the valley isn't expensive. 2) ... and Google and Facebook are not doing this. 3) ... and that's why VCs like Fred Wilson continuously call for the city to attract and help develop more engineering talent. 4) That was true a decade ago. It's now changing. 5) If you're doing a startup to get laid, you've got the wrong priorities. BTW, all the points you make are mostly refuted in part on talent ( http://www.tnl.net/blog/2011/01/08/silicon-valley-vs-new-york-talent/ http://www.tnl.net/blog/2011/01/08/silicon-valley-vs-new-yor... ) in the series.