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The full context of the quote includes elaboration which makes it worse. There’s so many mess crammed into that quote it’s hard to know where to start. “Wester

The full context of the quote includes elaboration which makes it worse. There’s so many mess crammed into that quote it’s hard to know where to start. “Western civilisation” is a weasel concept, meaning different things to different people at different times. You have to pin it down. “Western Civilisation” naturally must include Donald Trump, Karl Marx, and Andrea Dworkin. Their ideologies do not cohere at all. When they say the patriarchy they mean the patriarchy. When I say I’m opposed to patriarchy I mean I’m opposed to patriarchy. Oh, I’m actually opposed to “Western Civilisation”? Wtf does that even mean?

dragonwriter 7y ago
> “Western Civilisation” naturally must include Donald Trump, Karl Marx, and Andrea Dworkin. Marx And Dworkin, at least (and I think the case could be made for Trump, too) were dissenters against what they saw as dominant in their society, so even if we accept that their society must be identical to the whole scope of “Western Civilization”, the fact that they don't, along with Trump, have a single cohesive viewpoint doesn't in any way contradict the idea of Western Civilization as a coherent concept. (In fact, I don't think any of the three would disagree with the idea that patriarchy is deeply embedded in Western Civilization; Dworkin clearly saw that as a problem, Marx & Engels in passing discusses it as an effect of capitalism in the Communist Manifesto, and it seems to be one of the points on which Trump, even if a dissenter in other areas, is quite enamored with about his social milieu.)
- thundergolfer 7y ago
  You've attempted to show that they would agree on 'patriarchy in Western Civ.', but that doesn't go so far as to show that the full scope of their 'ideologies' can be reconciled Trump and Dworkin are key parts of Western Civilisation, and I think it's undebatable that their ideology and theory do not cohere. For Peterson 'Western Civilisation' clearly entails a very specific account of the role of certain people in developing our notions of things like liberty, empiricism, and individualism. Others are free to invoke in their idea of 'Western Civilisation' the role of certain people in practicing slavery, genocide, and colonialism.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> “Western Civilisation” naturally must include Donald Trump, Karl Marx, and Andrea Dworkin. Marx And Dworkin, at least (and I think the case could be made for Trump, too) were dissenters against what they saw as dominant in their society, so even if we accept that their society must be identical to the whole scope of “Western Civilization”, the fact that they don't, along with Trump, have a single cohesive viewpoint doesn't in any way contradict the idea of Western Civilization as a coherent concept. (In fact, I don't think any of the three would disagree with the idea that patriarchy is deeply embedded in Western Civilization; Dworkin clearly saw that as a problem, Marx & Engels in passing discusses it as an effect of capitalism in the Communist Manifesto, and it seems to be one of the points on which Trump, even if a dissenter in other areas, is quite enamored with about his social milieu.)

thundergolfer 7y ago
You've attempted to show that they would agree on 'patriarchy in Western Civ.', but that doesn't go so far as to show that the full scope of their 'ideologies' can be reconciled Trump and Dworkin are key parts of Western Civilisation, and I think it's undebatable that their ideology and theory do not cohere. For Peterson 'Western Civilisation' clearly entails a very specific account of the role of certain people in developing our notions of things like liberty, empiricism, and individualism. Others are free to invoke in their idea of 'Western Civilisation' the role of certain people in practicing slavery, genocide, and colonialism.