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Yes, but as your downvotes show, it's pointless defending him in "civilized" company. TFA quoting JBP: "patriarchy is Western civilization" Actual JBP quote:

by ta1133 7y ago

Yes, but as your downvotes show, it's pointless defending him in "civilized" company. TFA quoting JBP: "patriarchy is Western civilization" Actual JBP quote: "...the really, real radicals on the left who are opposed to the patriarchy - the patriarchy is western civilization make no mistake about it - patriarchy is just a code word for that - and governed by their neo marxist dogma and postmodern dogma they believe that it needs to be retooled right from the bottom up and that's exactly what they're doing and that makes them natural allies I would say of any other system that opposes our system" I.e. not "western civilization exists because of patriarchy" but "when they say patriarchy they mean all of western civilization".

rdiddly 7y ago
It's just funny to me, that earlier in the same piece he quotes a guy who's essentially saying the same thing. "Nobody’s going to pretend that ancient culture in general was feminist," says Anthony Long, Chancellor’s Professor Emeritus of Classics at the University of California at Berkeley. "It wasn’t. So inevitably when you’re reading ancient texts and philosophy, whether it’s Aristotle or Stoicism, the male gender will tend to be emphasized and male activities will tend to be emphasized." Yeah, or, succinctly, you could say Western Civilization is the patriarchy. Or slightly less succinctly you could say Western Civilization is made of books, and dudes wrote most of the books. Partly because women weren't even allowed to learn to read & write in many cases. Patriarchy led to dude-learning which led to dude-writing which led to Western Civ being mostly made of dude-books promulgating dude-ideas a.k.a. more patriarchy. Western Civilization (those books) is a manifestation, result and cause of patriarchy. It should not boggle the mind. "First you said women didn't have a voice. Then you said men did most of the talking. Make up your mind!"
Pils 7y ago
The actual quote makes Peterson look worse? The whole "patriarchy is Western civilization" is an idea that can be traced through Christian theology, Monarchism up to more modern Conservative philosophers like Leo Strauss and Roger Scruton. The quote itself is a strawman/buzzword soup. He sounds completely unhinged.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rdiddly 7y ago
  I agree he sounds kind of paranoid. Christianity and monarchism are elements of Western civilization, and both patriarchal. Nothing has to be traced.
- badpun 7y ago
  He's saying that about "real radicals". I'm not really following fringe radical left movements, but it wouldn't surprise me that if people who wanted to see our world demolishedn existed in there. There were such people in Russia before the October Revolution, or in China, or in Cambodia... The resentful, manipulative and power-hungry radical left was a major fixture in the recent history and I don't see a reason for why they'd suddently stop existing.
thundergolfer 7y ago
The full context of the quote includes elaboration which makes it worse. There’s so many mess crammed into that quote it’s hard to know where to start. “Western civilisation” is a weasel concept, meaning different things to different people at different times. You have to pin it down. “Western Civilisation” naturally must include Donald Trump, Karl Marx, and Andrea Dworkin. Their ideologies do not cohere at all. When they say the patriarchy they mean the patriarchy. When I say I’m opposed to patriarchy I mean I’m opposed to patriarchy. Oh, I’m actually opposed to “Western Civilisation”? Wtf does that even mean?
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > “Western Civilisation” naturally must include Donald Trump, Karl Marx, and Andrea Dworkin. Marx And Dworkin, at least (and I think the case could be made for Trump, too) were dissenters against what they saw as dominant in their society, so even if we accept that their society must be identical to the whole scope of “Western Civilization”, the fact that they don't, along with Trump, have a single cohesive viewpoint doesn't in any way contradict the idea of Western Civilization as a coherent concept. (In fact, I don't think any of the three would disagree with the idea that patriarchy is deeply embedded in Western Civilization; Dworkin clearly saw that as a problem, Marx & Engels in passing discusses it as an effect of capitalism in the Communist Manifesto, and it seems to be one of the points on which Trump, even if a dissenter in other areas, is quite enamored with about his social milieu.)
  - thundergolfer 7y ago
    You've attempted to show that they would agree on 'patriarchy in Western Civ.', but that doesn't go so far as to show that the full scope of their 'ideologies' can be reconciled Trump and Dworkin are key parts of Western Civilisation, and I think it's undebatable that their ideology and theory do not cohere. For Peterson 'Western Civilisation' clearly entails a very specific account of the role of certain people in developing our notions of things like liberty, empiricism, and individualism. Others are free to invoke in their idea of 'Western Civilisation' the role of certain people in practicing slavery, genocide, and colonialism.

by ta1133 7y ago

rdiddly 7y ago

It's just funny to me, that earlier in the same piece he quotes a guy who's essentially saying the same thing. "Nobody’s going to pretend that ancient culture in general was feminist," says Anthony Long, Chancellor’s Professor Emeritus of Classics at the University of California at Berkeley. "It wasn’t. So inevitably when you’re reading ancient texts and philosophy, whether it’s Aristotle or Stoicism, the male gender will tend to be emphasized and male activities will tend to be emphasized." Yeah, or, succinctly, you could say Western Civilization is the patriarchy. Or slightly less succinctly you could say Western Civilization is made of books, and dudes wrote most of the books. Partly because women weren't even allowed to learn to read & write in many cases. Patriarchy led to dude-learning which led to dude-writing which led to Western Civ being mostly made of dude-books promulgating dude-ideas a.k.a. more patriarchy. Western Civilization (those books) is a manifestation, result and cause of patriarchy. It should not boggle the mind. "First you said women didn't have a voice. Then you said men did most of the talking. Make up your mind!"

Pils 7y ago

The actual quote makes Peterson look worse? The whole "patriarchy is Western civilization" is an idea that can be traced through Christian theology, Monarchism up to more modern Conservative philosophers like Leo Strauss and Roger Scruton. The quote itself is a strawman/buzzword soup. He sounds completely unhinged.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rdiddly 7y ago
I agree he sounds kind of paranoid. Christianity and monarchism are elements of Western civilization, and both patriarchal. Nothing has to be traced.
badpun 7y ago
He's saying that about "real radicals". I'm not really following fringe radical left movements, but it wouldn't surprise me that if people who wanted to see our world demolishedn existed in there. There were such people in Russia before the October Revolution, or in China, or in Cambodia... The resentful, manipulative and power-hungry radical left was a major fixture in the recent history and I don't see a reason for why they'd suddently stop existing.

thundergolfer 7y ago

The full context of the quote includes elaboration which makes it worse. There’s so many mess crammed into that quote it’s hard to know where to start. “Western civilisation” is a weasel concept, meaning different things to different people at different times. You have to pin it down. “Western Civilisation” naturally must include Donald Trump, Karl Marx, and Andrea Dworkin. Their ideologies do not cohere at all. When they say the patriarchy they mean the patriarchy. When I say I’m opposed to patriarchy I mean I’m opposed to patriarchy. Oh, I’m actually opposed to “Western Civilisation”? Wtf does that even mean?

dragonwriter 7y ago
> “Western Civilisation” naturally must include Donald Trump, Karl Marx, and Andrea Dworkin. Marx And Dworkin, at least (and I think the case could be made for Trump, too) were dissenters against what they saw as dominant in their society, so even if we accept that their society must be identical to the whole scope of “Western Civilization”, the fact that they don't, along with Trump, have a single cohesive viewpoint doesn't in any way contradict the idea of Western Civilization as a coherent concept. (In fact, I don't think any of the three would disagree with the idea that patriarchy is deeply embedded in Western Civilization; Dworkin clearly saw that as a problem, Marx & Engels in passing discusses it as an effect of capitalism in the Communist Manifesto, and it seems to be one of the points on which Trump, even if a dissenter in other areas, is quite enamored with about his social milieu.)
- thundergolfer 7y ago
  You've attempted to show that they would agree on 'patriarchy in Western Civ.', but that doesn't go so far as to show that the full scope of their 'ideologies' can be reconciled Trump and Dworkin are key parts of Western Civilisation, and I think it's undebatable that their ideology and theory do not cohere. For Peterson 'Western Civilisation' clearly entails a very specific account of the role of certain people in developing our notions of things like liberty, empiricism, and individualism. Others are free to invoke in their idea of 'Western Civilisation' the role of certain people in practicing slavery, genocide, and colonialism.