4 ms·

Why are first world middle-upper class people suddenly so interested in stoicism?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gingabriska 7y ago
When you've resources, you realize how the world is gynocentric (as some would say). A lot of what men do, is for impressing opposite sex (to compete for them, acquiring wealth gives you ability to go after whoever you want, think Bezos). And now if you make all efforts but do not get the result, you become sad and depressed. You've got resources, why you've to feel bad? Stoicism, is red pill philosophy, which helps us see things exactly as they are without clouding our mind with wishful thinking or story from some romantic movie. It liberates you, stop chasing women, go your own way, work on interesting things, don't be sad when things fall apart, don't give anyone much importance in your life - it liberates you from your sufferings. It's called "not living in fake world, created by your imagination of how good people are or how good opposite sex is or whatever wishful thinking". We know, love as portrayed in books or movies is very hard to find or might be a myth. Let's have a thought experiment. What if i stop giving attention to women? What if I value myself more? What if I don't open doors for a woman, what if I don't pull the chair for her. What if I don't pay her bills? Suddenly, you find yourself making zero effort for opposite sex and your expectations from them go down. And you no longer feel sad because your expectations are fulfilled as you've none. Is it a toxic way of thinking? I don't think so, it shields me from major disappointments and setbacks which might end up in depression/addiction of some kind. Yes, now opposite sex which is used to recieving nice things from me, might see this way of thinking as toxic as it basically ends their supply but increasing my contentment with life. You can use this philosophy to shield you from anything and everything. Your friend died? No problem! It's raining and there is hole in your roof? Doesn't matter. But I specially use it to shield myself from opposite sex because that's where I've got major disappointments in life and I was on verge of collapse, I am now lot better! Don't just downvote, help me understand where am I wrong? I come here to learn.
- craigsmansion 7y ago
  > Is it a toxic way of thinking? It might be, if it dominates your reasoning and view of the world. It might be that what you are looking for is not the ability to refuse to open the door for a woman, but to being able to do so without a second thought.
- winkelwagen 7y ago
  My advice to you is that stoicism help with thinks about these kinds of things. But your focus on the opposite sex sounds really unhealthy. Think I would definitely recommend you to get specific/professional help with that. You need to deal with the issues you have, you cannot simply wish them gone. If you don’t deal with it, you will definitely carry it with you way longer then you should. It will prohibit you getting into meaningful relationships with others. Part of mindfulness and stoicism is also accepting that your mental model doesn’t contain the whole truth of the universe, and to accept there are certain areas that you could be wrong. Stay strong, and it’s good to read that you are working on yourself and learning.
  - gingabriska 7y ago
    >You need to deal with the issues you have, you cannot simply wish them gone. If you don’t deal with it, you will definitely carry it with you way longer then you should My wife is a psychologist. She is always interested in listening to me, and I've told her whatever I think and she's ok with that. I don't think I've some issues. There were some women who told me I am exceptionally handsome, they stay with me for sometime - then I found them cheating. Some were with me for money. And my wife so far is the only person who isn't like any of the ones I met in past, so there is some hope. But I also told her, I assume that one day you'll cheat on me too. I don't think they've wronged me or anything. I don't hold grudge against women, it's just I realize their nature and have made peace with it. Ofc, all my conclusions come from my own observation. If you did not have such major setbacks in life, I am happy for you. Thing is, you think I am rejected by women - so I am bitter. But reality is far from it. I've friend's girlfriend hitting on me, provoking me to cheat with them on their boyfriends. I've married women at office coming to me to again cheat on their husbands. Then the ones I loved, cheated on me and left me. I've so many opportunities to sleep with women that I think there are no feelings involved in anything when it comes to them and they just like tingles and money.
Alex63 7y ago
IMHO, for the same reason many of them are interested in Buddhism. I think many middle-upper class people struggle to understand why they are not happy in spite of their material wealth. Buddhism, Stoicism, and other philosophies offer answers for how one can find happiness/satisfaction in life, irrespective of one's material possessions or status. I also think that Stoicism in particular may currently be popular because, in comparison to eastern philosophies, it is more grounded in traditional Western thought and may be easier for Westerners to understand. At least compared to my efforts to understand Taoism, for example.
mjfisher 7y ago
It's been popularized, and I don't think that's a bad thing. It has spread fairly organically because it's not a bad starting point for a philosophy of life. I was introduced to the concept through Tim Ferris' podcast. He suggested as "a good default OS for your mind". I was having some personal difficulties at the time, and it really helped. It also tends to slot in quite well alongside mindfulness practices, which have also become popular lately.
mntmoss 7y ago
The world feels very uncertain for the middle-class these days, especially in an economic sense, which is one that strikes right at the heart of one's "locus of control". It doesn't offer the same kind of promise or opportunity as it did 40 years ago, and risks are advertised constantly. Stoic teachings have broad applicability: Epictitus(my favorite flavor) says to control the things you can control, and to not worry about the rest. There is a patriarchal thread to some of this, as Stoicism could be interpreted in a "men's rights" sense of asserting dominion and gender roles. But focusing on "the way things should be" is rather a false way of going about it, since there's also a thread of mutually respecting struggle and self-mastery in the Stoic philosophers. There isn't a point in Stoicism where the status quo ever becomes OK, where you are "good enough". There is only another form of struggle to be had.
- gingabriska 7y ago
  In my case it's not about uncertainty. I am rich, I've got cash, I've assets. I can buy whatever I want, I can use and consume any forbidden drug. They sell me fake world. Then my fake world breaks like a shattered mirror and suddenly I am helpless, feeling pain, depressed, turning towards drugs. Why I am so unhappy with my life? Because I am not born with exceptionally good looks, I see my girlfriend chasing guy who looks better than me but isn't as successful as me? Should I be happy about it? The girls who come for me, want resources - they fake love well. Suddenly, love disappears if I stop paying bills. As a man with means, I can choose to take mind altering drug and numb myself down but I choose to handle psychological pain through philosophy and self realization. I want to accept things as they are. I don't feel wronged, betrayed, I don't hold grudge towards anyone. I accepted the fact, what people are doing around me are doing whatever they want to do, whatever they feel serves their interest. This way of thinking can't be toxic. The ones I thought I loved, cheated on me with prisoner (life destroyed but looks big and dangerous), another cheated with some banker (huge debts but exceptionally good looks)
  - dictum 7y ago
    Here's a certainly not contemplative answer which would suit HN best: If money is no problem and you've correctly narrowed your problems down to your looks (here's where you might be wrong), plastic surgery is very effective.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rjf72 7y ago
I'm sure there are many different reasons but I expect a common one is because our worlds have become deeply intertwined with online stuff. And online stuff is, almost entirely, fake. Not fake as it not real (though there is plenty of that) but posturing, signaling, image crafting, and all of this other fakeness to try to achieve some frequently superficial end or another. And piled on top of this is a hoard of companies all seemingly happy to create a dystopia to get people to click on ads so they can make a few more bucks to...? When you take a step back and look at it 'from a distance' it's all just so unimaginably absurd, and fake. When 'soul searching' for whatever 'real' actually is, it's quite easy to end up in the classics of philosophy and, in one way or another, stoicism.
vajaya 7y ago
I guess it's because first world middle/upper-middle class are the most anxious of all social strata, because they have to constantly struggle with maintaining their social standings and that their children would not fall down, which is extremely hard, mostly because in first world middle/upper middle class kids have to compete with all other children in the same or lesser social standings and they usually don't have competitive edge. If u.s. society is a caste system, where upper middle class kids don't have to compete with middle class kids, and middle class kids don't have to compete with middle lower class people, where each class has its cultural/religious/socioeconomic/political moat to keep lower class people from getting in, people in general would not feel that level of anxiousness.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

When you've resources, you realize how the world is gynocentric (as some would say). A lot of what men do, is for impressing opposite sex (to compete for them, acquiring wealth gives you ability to go after whoever you want, think Bezos). And now if you make all efforts but do not get the result, you become sad and depressed. You've got resources, why you've to feel bad? Stoicism, is red pill philosophy, which helps us see things exactly as they are without clouding our mind with wishful thinking or story from some romantic movie. It liberates you, stop chasing women, go your own way, work on interesting things, don't be sad when things fall apart, don't give anyone much importance in your life - it liberates you from your sufferings. It's called "not living in fake world, created by your imagination of how good people are or how good opposite sex is or whatever wishful thinking". We know, love as portrayed in books or movies is very hard to find or might be a myth. Let's have a thought experiment. What if i stop giving attention to women? What if I value myself more? What if I don't open doors for a woman, what if I don't pull the chair for her. What if I don't pay her bills? Suddenly, you find yourself making zero effort for opposite sex and your expectations from them go down. And you no longer feel sad because your expectations are fulfilled as you've none. Is it a toxic way of thinking? I don't think so, it shields me from major disappointments and setbacks which might end up in depression/addiction of some kind. Yes, now opposite sex which is used to recieving nice things from me, might see this way of thinking as toxic as it basically ends their supply but increasing my contentment with life. You can use this philosophy to shield you from anything and everything. Your friend died? No problem! It's raining and there is hole in your roof? Doesn't matter. But I specially use it to shield myself from opposite sex because that's where I've got major disappointments in life and I was on verge of collapse, I am now lot better! Don't just downvote, help me understand where am I wrong? I come here to learn.

craigsmansion 7y ago
> Is it a toxic way of thinking? It might be, if it dominates your reasoning and view of the world. It might be that what you are looking for is not the ability to refuse to open the door for a woman, but to being able to do so without a second thought.
winkelwagen 7y ago
My advice to you is that stoicism help with thinks about these kinds of things. But your focus on the opposite sex sounds really unhealthy. Think I would definitely recommend you to get specific/professional help with that. You need to deal with the issues you have, you cannot simply wish them gone. If you don’t deal with it, you will definitely carry it with you way longer then you should. It will prohibit you getting into meaningful relationships with others. Part of mindfulness and stoicism is also accepting that your mental model doesn’t contain the whole truth of the universe, and to accept there are certain areas that you could be wrong. Stay strong, and it’s good to read that you are working on yourself and learning.
- gingabriska 7y ago
  >You need to deal with the issues you have, you cannot simply wish them gone. If you don’t deal with it, you will definitely carry it with you way longer then you should My wife is a psychologist. She is always interested in listening to me, and I've told her whatever I think and she's ok with that. I don't think I've some issues. There were some women who told me I am exceptionally handsome, they stay with me for sometime - then I found them cheating. Some were with me for money. And my wife so far is the only person who isn't like any of the ones I met in past, so there is some hope. But I also told her, I assume that one day you'll cheat on me too. I don't think they've wronged me or anything. I don't hold grudge against women, it's just I realize their nature and have made peace with it. Ofc, all my conclusions come from my own observation. If you did not have such major setbacks in life, I am happy for you. Thing is, you think I am rejected by women - so I am bitter. But reality is far from it. I've friend's girlfriend hitting on me, provoking me to cheat with them on their boyfriends. I've married women at office coming to me to again cheat on their husbands. Then the ones I loved, cheated on me and left me. I've so many opportunities to sleep with women that I think there are no feelings involved in anything when it comes to them and they just like tingles and money.

Alex63 7y ago

IMHO, for the same reason many of them are interested in Buddhism. I think many middle-upper class people struggle to understand why they are not happy in spite of their material wealth. Buddhism, Stoicism, and other philosophies offer answers for how one can find happiness/satisfaction in life, irrespective of one's material possessions or status. I also think that Stoicism in particular may currently be popular because, in comparison to eastern philosophies, it is more grounded in traditional Western thought and may be easier for Westerners to understand. At least compared to my efforts to understand Taoism, for example.

mjfisher 7y ago

It's been popularized, and I don't think that's a bad thing. It has spread fairly organically because it's not a bad starting point for a philosophy of life. I was introduced to the concept through Tim Ferris' podcast. He suggested as "a good default OS for your mind". I was having some personal difficulties at the time, and it really helped. It also tends to slot in quite well alongside mindfulness practices, which have also become popular lately.

mntmoss 7y ago

The world feels very uncertain for the middle-class these days, especially in an economic sense, which is one that strikes right at the heart of one's "locus of control". It doesn't offer the same kind of promise or opportunity as it did 40 years ago, and risks are advertised constantly. Stoic teachings have broad applicability: Epictitus(my favorite flavor) says to control the things you can control, and to not worry about the rest. There is a patriarchal thread to some of this, as Stoicism could be interpreted in a "men's rights" sense of asserting dominion and gender roles. But focusing on "the way things should be" is rather a false way of going about it, since there's also a thread of mutually respecting struggle and self-mastery in the Stoic philosophers. There isn't a point in Stoicism where the status quo ever becomes OK, where you are "good enough". There is only another form of struggle to be had.

gingabriska 7y ago
In my case it's not about uncertainty. I am rich, I've got cash, I've assets. I can buy whatever I want, I can use and consume any forbidden drug. They sell me fake world. Then my fake world breaks like a shattered mirror and suddenly I am helpless, feeling pain, depressed, turning towards drugs. Why I am so unhappy with my life? Because I am not born with exceptionally good looks, I see my girlfriend chasing guy who looks better than me but isn't as successful as me? Should I be happy about it? The girls who come for me, want resources - they fake love well. Suddenly, love disappears if I stop paying bills. As a man with means, I can choose to take mind altering drug and numb myself down but I choose to handle psychological pain through philosophy and self realization. I want to accept things as they are. I don't feel wronged, betrayed, I don't hold grudge towards anyone. I accepted the fact, what people are doing around me are doing whatever they want to do, whatever they feel serves their interest. This way of thinking can't be toxic. The ones I thought I loved, cheated on me with prisoner (life destroyed but looks big and dangerous), another cheated with some banker (huge debts but exceptionally good looks)
- dictum 7y ago
  Here's a certainly not contemplative answer which would suit HN best: If money is no problem and you've correctly narrowed your problems down to your looks (here's where you might be wrong), plastic surgery is very effective.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rjf72 7y ago

I'm sure there are many different reasons but I expect a common one is because our worlds have become deeply intertwined with online stuff. And online stuff is, almost entirely, fake. Not fake as it not real (though there is plenty of that) but posturing, signaling, image crafting, and all of this other fakeness to try to achieve some frequently superficial end or another. And piled on top of this is a hoard of companies all seemingly happy to create a dystopia to get people to click on ads so they can make a few more bucks to...? When you take a step back and look at it 'from a distance' it's all just so unimaginably absurd, and fake. When 'soul searching' for whatever 'real' actually is, it's quite easy to end up in the classics of philosophy and, in one way or another, stoicism.

vajaya 7y ago

I guess it's because first world middle/upper-middle class are the most anxious of all social strata, because they have to constantly struggle with maintaining their social standings and that their children would not fall down, which is extremely hard, mostly because in first world middle/upper middle class kids have to compete with all other children in the same or lesser social standings and they usually don't have competitive edge. If u.s. society is a caste system, where upper middle class kids don't have to compete with middle class kids, and middle class kids don't have to compete with middle lower class people, where each class has its cultural/religious/socioeconomic/political moat to keep lower class people from getting in, people in general would not feel that level of anxiousness.