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Nobody is questioning that they give some software back but giving software back simply does not fund open source. Most people cannot convert their contributio

Nobody is questioning that they give some software back but giving software back simply does not fund open source. Most people cannot convert their contributions into money as deftly as FAANG has converted 10,000s of people's contributions into a quarter trillion dollars. It does not fund the tools that power their current open source projects. It does not fund the tools their next open source projects will use. It does not fund the brilliance their next open source projects will iterate on. It does not fund the mistakes their next open source projects will know to avoid. They need all of that stuff before they have even a clue what to make next, and they need the open source community to try everything a hundred different ways to see which is good. We will still be arguing about this in twenty years as open source transitions into a mostly Indo-Chino-Russo-African dominated landscape because western developers can't afford to work on open source unless it's through their employing-FAANG company. Long before that all the current FAANG open source we're supposed to be grateful to receive instead of funding will be obsoleted and tossed aside because only a handful of ideas in it actually mattered after all.

root_axis 7y ago
> Nobody is questioning that they give some software back but giving software back simply does not fund open source As I already stated, yes, it does fund open source. That's literally what they're doing: spending funds on developing and maintaining open source code. Did they fund every transient piece of software in the technology stack? Of course not. It does not fund the... Corporate money funds all of those things you listed. No, not every single package that becomes popular, but many of them, including many informed by practical knowledge acquired through battle-tested experience operating such software in their businesses. > western developers can't afford to work on open source unless it's at a FAANG company. So what? If western developers can't afford to work on open-source software they shouldn't. I wouldn't expect anyone to work for free if they couldn't afford to do so.
- benologist 7y ago
  You mentioned the wealthiest 0.000001% of open source projects in a discussion about how the other 99.999999% need funding as some kind of proof FAANG are pulling their weight. Just their cash savings weigh about 2,500 tonnes so they're obviously not pulling their weight at all. The so-what is software development evolution comes to a grinding halt while we wait for third-world and developing countries to hit the sweet spot where people can afford to pursue their art and afford the tools and connectivity it requires and afford the many years of learning to understand the steps between hello world and inventing kubernetes. Google didn't even invent kubernetes as much as they extrapolated to it from experience and open source.
  - root_axis 7y ago
    They don't need funding. Most open-source software is redundant, low quality, or extremely niche. It's ok if some open source software is simply never written. I think it's fair for developers to charge (or otherwise monetize, including ads) for their software, even if they open-source it, but they don't "need" funding any more than any other arbitrary piece of software that someone somewhere thinks should exist. > software development evolution comes to a grinding halt What's wrong with this? If "software development evolution comes to a grinding halt" then it means we didn't need any more new software and existing solutions have solved all problems.
    - benologist 7y ago
      They do need funding or they wouldn't put ads in node modules. They wouldn't sell popular packages to bad people to repurpose as malware. These are telltale signs that open source developers are not being looked after. They are not making ends meet. These are people with popular open source and the reward for open source is not being distributed effectively for popular projects so it's surely much worse for the bottom million projects. And the low-quality stuff is super-important too. Before someone can work at FAANG they need to write good software. Before they can write good software they're going to practice writing all kinds of dumb shit and good stuff building the experience and knowledge required to invent a kubernetes. The time investment to obtain the skillset to work for FAANG is years. It requires hardware and connectivity. The problem with it coming to a grinding halt is we're obviously not finished yet. In ten years React should be in the trash like literally everything that preceded it is. We might still be using Flash if we were finished. Its syntax sure looks like it lent TypeScript some ideas. What if software genius like Torvalds isn't even rare and we're still just too stupid to foster and enable it for common good...
      - root_axis 7y ago
        > They do need funding or they wouldn't put ads in node modules That's a tautology. They decided to monetize their open-source work through ads. I don't disagree with this approach, if users don't like the ads then don't use the software. That doesn't mean companies need to arbitrarily fund that project. > Before they can write good software they're going to practice writing all kinds of dumb shit and good stuff building the experience and knowledge required to invent a kubernetes. So what? They can write lots of practice software and not open-source it. Why should anyone be paying for them to do so? > The problem with it coming to a grinding halt is we're obviously not finished yet. In ten years React should be in the trash like literally everything that preceded it is. We might still be using Flash if we were finished. Its syntax sure looks like it lent TypeScript some ideas. If it should be so then it will be so. People will write software if there is a need for it. There is no inherent reason why React "should" be in the trash in 10 years, it will be in the trash only if new problems need to be solved and if they do someone will attempt to solve them.

root_axis 7y ago

> Nobody is questioning that they give some software back but giving software back simply does not fund open source As I already stated, yes, it does fund open source. That's literally what they're doing: spending funds on developing and maintaining open source code. Did they fund every transient piece of software in the technology stack? Of course not. It does not fund the... Corporate money funds all of those things you listed. No, not every single package that becomes popular, but many of them, including many informed by practical knowledge acquired through battle-tested experience operating such software in their businesses. > western developers can't afford to work on open source unless it's at a FAANG company. So what? If western developers can't afford to work on open-source software they shouldn't. I wouldn't expect anyone to work for free if they couldn't afford to do so.

benologist 7y ago
You mentioned the wealthiest 0.000001% of open source projects in a discussion about how the other 99.999999% need funding as some kind of proof FAANG are pulling their weight. Just their cash savings weigh about 2,500 tonnes so they're obviously not pulling their weight at all. The so-what is software development evolution comes to a grinding halt while we wait for third-world and developing countries to hit the sweet spot where people can afford to pursue their art and afford the tools and connectivity it requires and afford the many years of learning to understand the steps between hello world and inventing kubernetes. Google didn't even invent kubernetes as much as they extrapolated to it from experience and open source.
- root_axis 7y ago
  They don't need funding. Most open-source software is redundant, low quality, or extremely niche. It's ok if some open source software is simply never written. I think it's fair for developers to charge (or otherwise monetize, including ads) for their software, even if they open-source it, but they don't "need" funding any more than any other arbitrary piece of software that someone somewhere thinks should exist. > software development evolution comes to a grinding halt What's wrong with this? If "software development evolution comes to a grinding halt" then it means we didn't need any more new software and existing solutions have solved all problems.
  - benologist 7y ago
    They do need funding or they wouldn't put ads in node modules. They wouldn't sell popular packages to bad people to repurpose as malware. These are telltale signs that open source developers are not being looked after. They are not making ends meet. These are people with popular open source and the reward for open source is not being distributed effectively for popular projects so it's surely much worse for the bottom million projects. And the low-quality stuff is super-important too. Before someone can work at FAANG they need to write good software. Before they can write good software they're going to practice writing all kinds of dumb shit and good stuff building the experience and knowledge required to invent a kubernetes. The time investment to obtain the skillset to work for FAANG is years. It requires hardware and connectivity. The problem with it coming to a grinding halt is we're obviously not finished yet. In ten years React should be in the trash like literally everything that preceded it is. We might still be using Flash if we were finished. Its syntax sure looks like it lent TypeScript some ideas. What if software genius like Torvalds isn't even rare and we're still just too stupid to foster and enable it for common good...
    - root_axis 7y ago
      > They do need funding or they wouldn't put ads in node modules That's a tautology. They decided to monetize their open-source work through ads. I don't disagree with this approach, if users don't like the ads then don't use the software. That doesn't mean companies need to arbitrarily fund that project. > Before they can write good software they're going to practice writing all kinds of dumb shit and good stuff building the experience and knowledge required to invent a kubernetes. So what? They can write lots of practice software and not open-source it. Why should anyone be paying for them to do so? > The problem with it coming to a grinding halt is we're obviously not finished yet. In ten years React should be in the trash like literally everything that preceded it is. We might still be using Flash if we were finished. Its syntax sure looks like it lent TypeScript some ideas. If it should be so then it will be so. People will write software if there is a need for it. There is no inherent reason why React "should" be in the trash in 10 years, it will be in the trash only if new problems need to be solved and if they do someone will attempt to solve them.