6 ms·

How does the internal culture at FB come to grips with the world's vision of them as creepy and amoral and still do stuff like this anyway?

ecf 7y ago
$$$
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
That culture has been built up over years. And probably most of the people they hire don't have the life experiences that would give them pause and allow them to consider or even recognize if what they're tasked to do is creepy or not.
- nerdponx 7y ago
  That, or they don't care. Or they don't care enough.
  - cjarrett 7y ago
    If you do care, you get filtered out.
    - avgDev 7y ago
      Theranos is the prime example of this. Whoever, was negative about the product in a way was removed. If one questioned a promise of the product because it was IMPOSSIBLE they got fired.
      - aledalgrande 7y ago
        The "not a team player" case.
- funkymike 7y ago
  Not at FB but just doing enterprise software development I've had to explain to other developers that capturing and storing user info just because we can is in the "not okay" category. There are plenty of people who don't even consider ethics at work. They get a feature request, so they deliver it, with no second thoughts. These aren't bad people per se, it just doesn't occur to them to question the reasons for a request or what the end result is within a larger context.
  - godelski 7y ago
    I think this is because people don't see the value of data. I've also heard a lot of justification about people saying "well my individual data isn't worth anything" but also being freaked out by ads they get. I'm always confused by this juxtaposition. But I guess there's similar stances in a lot of places in our culture right now.
Allower 7y ago
Seems like people assume FB employees are 'gifted' they are technically capable, and emotionally and philosophically infantile.
- fyfy18 7y ago
  In a way that's what you want for the stereotypical "startup culture". Nobody in their fourties who has the life experience of being married with kids is going to work lots of overtime and put up with their boss acting like a child and treating them like they are nobody. I guess that's why they like hiring college grads (that and they don't know their value so can be paid much less).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
I am reminded of a quote from Mad Men: "How do you sleep at night?" "On a bed made of money."
- bobbyi_settv 7y ago
  That was from The Simpsons way before Mad Men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0JaecRWy0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0JaecRWy0
godelski 7y ago
Because it happens in small steps. (I'm talking extreme end here, btw). Someone doesn't turn to high crimes overnight nor are they (usually) born that way. You start of making smaller immoral decisions which then become normal. You essentially move the bar a little more and more. People sleep at night frankly because they no longer think that these things are immoral. That's why there's plenty of sayings along the lines of "the path to heaven is long and narrow and the path to hell is short and wide". Obviously morals are flexible and need to be to survive in this world. But the thing is when people are put into environments that encourage this bar to be pushed too far (by what society determines is too far). Btw, if you like podcasts Hidden Brain did an episode on this concept that went through how an athlete went from taking no sports enhancing drugs to being a major dealer. And they decompose each step and how reasonable they seem in the context. Tldr: it's no longer immoral for them, so the real question is "what keeps them up at night?"
- bound008 7y ago
  Which episode? I can’t manage to find it.
  - godelski 7y ago
    I'm sorry I can't find it either. Maybe it was a different podcast. I'm trying to think of other podcasts. I don't think it was RadioLab. Could have been another NPR show but I can't think which one would address this issue. HB seems like the best fit. I can bound the date of when I listened to it. Was definitely between 2018 and 2015. My intuition says 2017, because that was the height of my podcast listening. The time is probably why I can't remember in high detail. Basically the story I remember is that there was a sports athlete that was in the lower ranks and then got a prescription, that they actually needed, that also improved their performance. Then I think it got banned? So they start buying it from another country like China or something. They then started buying in bulk because it was cheaper. Their friends started asking for some because he was getting it for cheap and he didn't think anything of it because he was just helping them save money too. They're his friends after all and he was already buying the stuff. So what difference did it make if he just ordered a little more? Then it started being friends of friends. Before he knew it he was selling tons of this stuff and to people he had no real previous knowledge of. I now really want to listen to it again so if someone can help find it let me know. I think they might have also talked about Lance (I'm not sure if they interviewed him or that's another podcast I'm thinking of).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Spooky23 7y ago
Morals don’t pay the bills.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

ecf 7y ago

$$$

JustSomeNobody 7y ago

That culture has been built up over years. And probably most of the people they hire don't have the life experiences that would give them pause and allow them to consider or even recognize if what they're tasked to do is creepy or not.

nerdponx 7y ago
That, or they don't care. Or they don't care enough.
- cjarrett 7y ago
  If you do care, you get filtered out.
  - avgDev 7y ago
    Theranos is the prime example of this. Whoever, was negative about the product in a way was removed. If one questioned a promise of the product because it was IMPOSSIBLE they got fired.
    - aledalgrande 7y ago
      The "not a team player" case.
funkymike 7y ago
Not at FB but just doing enterprise software development I've had to explain to other developers that capturing and storing user info just because we can is in the "not okay" category. There are plenty of people who don't even consider ethics at work. They get a feature request, so they deliver it, with no second thoughts. These aren't bad people per se, it just doesn't occur to them to question the reasons for a request or what the end result is within a larger context.
- godelski 7y ago
  I think this is because people don't see the value of data. I've also heard a lot of justification about people saying "well my individual data isn't worth anything" but also being freaked out by ads they get. I'm always confused by this juxtaposition. But I guess there's similar stances in a lot of places in our culture right now.

Allower 7y ago

Seems like people assume FB employees are 'gifted' they are technically capable, and emotionally and philosophically infantile.

fyfy18 7y ago
In a way that's what you want for the stereotypical "startup culture". Nobody in their fourties who has the life experience of being married with kids is going to work lots of overtime and put up with their boss acting like a child and treating them like they are nobody. I guess that's why they like hiring college grads (that and they don't know their value so can be paid much less).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

I am reminded of a quote from Mad Men: "How do you sleep at night?" "On a bed made of money."

bobbyi_settv 7y ago
That was from The Simpsons way before Mad Men: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0JaecRWy0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO0JaecRWy0

godelski 7y ago

Because it happens in small steps. (I'm talking extreme end here, btw). Someone doesn't turn to high crimes overnight nor are they (usually) born that way. You start of making smaller immoral decisions which then become normal. You essentially move the bar a little more and more. People sleep at night frankly because they no longer think that these things are immoral. That's why there's plenty of sayings along the lines of "the path to heaven is long and narrow and the path to hell is short and wide". Obviously morals are flexible and need to be to survive in this world. But the thing is when people are put into environments that encourage this bar to be pushed too far (by what society determines is too far). Btw, if you like podcasts Hidden Brain did an episode on this concept that went through how an athlete went from taking no sports enhancing drugs to being a major dealer. And they decompose each step and how reasonable they seem in the context. Tldr: it's no longer immoral for them, so the real question is "what keeps them up at night?"

bound008 7y ago
Which episode? I can’t manage to find it.
- godelski 7y ago
  I'm sorry I can't find it either. Maybe it was a different podcast. I'm trying to think of other podcasts. I don't think it was RadioLab. Could have been another NPR show but I can't think which one would address this issue. HB seems like the best fit. I can bound the date of when I listened to it. Was definitely between 2018 and 2015. My intuition says 2017, because that was the height of my podcast listening. The time is probably why I can't remember in high detail. Basically the story I remember is that there was a sports athlete that was in the lower ranks and then got a prescription, that they actually needed, that also improved their performance. Then I think it got banned? So they start buying it from another country like China or something. They then started buying in bulk because it was cheaper. Their friends started asking for some because he was getting it for cheap and he didn't think anything of it because he was just helping them save money too. They're his friends after all and he was already buying the stuff. So what difference did it make if he just ordered a little more? Then it started being friends of friends. Before he knew it he was selling tons of this stuff and to people he had no real previous knowledge of. I now really want to listen to it again so if someone can help find it let me know. I think they might have also talked about Lance (I'm not sure if they interviewed him or that's another podcast I'm thinking of).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Spooky23 7y ago

Morals don’t pay the bills.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]