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Any reason you think that this crashes would not have ever happened in US? Before the first crash the pilots did not even known abut MCAS existence so I am not

Any reason you think that this crashes would not have ever happened in US? Before the first crash the pilots did not even known abut MCAS existence so I am not sure why you think that US pilots are extraordinary, I assume that not all MAX pilots are ex fighter pilots with super skills and whatever you imagine that makes ALL US pilots superior to the rest of the world.

matz1 7y ago
So is it merely luck that this crashes doesn't happen in US ?
- simion314 7y ago
  IMO yes, but even if US pilots are in average 10x better there still was a chance that you would fly with a 1x pilot and because he would have followed the checklist and crash the plane. Do you have facts that say that the probability of this happening in US was 0 ?
  - matz1 7y ago
    I don't think anyone insinuating that the probability of this happening in US was 0 but the fact remain that the number of crash so far is 0.
    - bronson 7y ago
      The fact is, Greece also has 0 crashes. Your statement doesn't make any sense. What is different about the US? (Other than we had fewer MAX-8 deliveries than the rest of the world)
      - matz1 7y ago
        Which of my statement doesn't make any sense ? >What is different about the US? Thats the question that I asked.
        bronson 7y ago
        "fact remain that the number of crash so far is 0" makes zero sense. And you even got an answer to your question. The number of deliveries is different. What's your point?
        matz1 7y ago
        > "fact remain that the number of crash so far is 0" makes zero sense My statement is not a fact ? okay >And you even got an answer to your question. The number of deliveries is different And I didn't refute or deny that either.
      - elkos 7y ago
        As far as I remember no Greek airlines (p.e. Aegean) have MAX-8s.
    - simion314 7y ago
      Do you even studied statistics? There was no crashes in Canada or X country , what conclusion can you make from this?
    - linuxftw 7y ago
      Well, except for the major airlines, Boeing, and the FAA were saying pretty much that after the first crash, with absolutely no technical basis for saying it. Those parties continued to assure the public that the aircraft were completely safe until the entire rest of the planet ground the aircraft and the US President ordered the FAA to ground the aircraft.
- brohee 7y ago
  The majority of the delivered ones were so outside the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_and_deliveries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_...
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  This is a good question. A number of possible answers (and no, pilot skill not the only one - though everyone is focusing on that and boeing). Maintenance. This issue develops IF the computer gets bad data from a sensor. Question - would this sort of thing get fixed more quickly in the US? For the Ethiopian crash we have in days leading up to crash errors in the system - all different flights * Capt side altimeter erratic, showed a decent and lower level then back to normal. * During approach at 1000' the aircraft started to roll right with the auto pilot engaged. * During approach at 8K altimeter rapidly descended and returned to normal - caused autopilot problems. * During takeoff altitude and vert speed on both PFDs showed erratic indications For Lion Air in days leading up an increase in warnings. Some excerpts. * Speed trim fail light and mach trim fail light * Auto throttle diconnect * Speed and Alt flag * Feel diff pressure - fail light illuminated * Maintenance light illuminated during landing Regulatory regime What's the local situation in terms of check rides, maintenance monitoring and cross checks, airline procedure monitoring etc. Ethiopia has a relatively stronger reputation here. Training The memory item in this situation is basically a revert to manual flight. There is a possibility that manual flight is not as common in some countries, particularly if they don't have a large General Aviation pool to pull from. This is a concern in US as well (automation reliance). The path to getting onto a jet in US is currently different than other places. To be a first officer takes 1,500+ hours and an ATP. That's a pretty high bar. This is a design issue I think as well -> should Boeing reasonably consider that there may be differences between pilot groups in terms of training pathways. I would suggest obviously yes. Is the FAA at fault because other countries may choose different approaches? That's less clear to me. BTW the FAA did a terrible job for a while with small charter operators in financial distress with bad maintenance for example - so the FAA has blindspots but their Part 121 stuff has a good record so far. The US system has had some amazing saves -> failures with airport bird control -> capt sully etc. Often these pilots aren't jet fighter pilots but have things like glider or small plane experience that is helpful. So systems break down in US, but saves happen. My US worries are maintenance given cost pressures and actually Air Traffic Control (given fatigue and some weakening of standards there around new hiring).
iamtheworstdev 7y ago
In all seriousness, i believe the reason why many think the crashes would not have happened in the US is because Southwest and others all ordered the planes with redundant sensors (in the area where it pertains to these crashes) whereas many overseas airlines did not.
- simion314 7y ago
  But did the checklist had the correct instructions on what to do in the case the extra alarm light would turn on? I think since MCAS was not disclosed there must not have been mentioned in the checklists either
  - privateSFacct 7y ago
    The checklist for runaway stab trim is the same with MCAS -> but more likely and so a much more critical issue. Boeing should have updated pilots for sure - BUT many MCAS events may have occurred and been saved by the existing checklist which overlaps the issue.
- temac 7y ago
  It was my understanding that such redundancy for automation purposes did not even exist, and that despite having 2 AoA sensors only one was selected before a flight, with the computer switching the one to be used between each flight. Also Southwest certainly did not have all of the indicators at first, because they added some: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines-is-adding-new-angle-of-attack-indicators-to-its-737-max-fleet/ https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines... (note that pretty much nobody used that kind of indicator before, so I don't say that to put blame on Southwest) It was also my understanding that some alarms including the AoA disagree were optional and for a fee even though probably activated by only needing to switch a bit somewhere in the software. So if Southwest had AoA disagree from the beginning (I don't know), well that's cool, but my interpretation is more like: that's not cool that some other airlines did not have it because of the dubious commercial practices of Boeing.
  - 7y ago

matz1 7y ago

So is it merely luck that this crashes doesn't happen in US ?

simion314 7y ago
IMO yes, but even if US pilots are in average 10x better there still was a chance that you would fly with a 1x pilot and because he would have followed the checklist and crash the plane. Do you have facts that say that the probability of this happening in US was 0 ?
- matz1 7y ago
  I don't think anyone insinuating that the probability of this happening in US was 0 but the fact remain that the number of crash so far is 0.
  - bronson 7y ago
    The fact is, Greece also has 0 crashes. Your statement doesn't make any sense. What is different about the US? (Other than we had fewer MAX-8 deliveries than the rest of the world)
    - matz1 7y ago
      Which of my statement doesn't make any sense ? >What is different about the US? Thats the question that I asked.
      - bronson 7y ago
        "fact remain that the number of crash so far is 0" makes zero sense. And you even got an answer to your question. The number of deliveries is different. What's your point?
        matz1 7y ago
        > "fact remain that the number of crash so far is 0" makes zero sense My statement is not a fact ? okay >And you even got an answer to your question. The number of deliveries is different And I didn't refute or deny that either.
    - elkos 7y ago
      As far as I remember no Greek airlines (p.e. Aegean) have MAX-8s.
  - simion314 7y ago
    Do you even studied statistics? There was no crashes in Canada or X country , what conclusion can you make from this?
  - linuxftw 7y ago
    Well, except for the major airlines, Boeing, and the FAA were saying pretty much that after the first crash, with absolutely no technical basis for saying it. Those parties continued to assure the public that the aircraft were completely safe until the entire rest of the planet ground the aircraft and the US President ordered the FAA to ground the aircraft.
brohee 7y ago
The majority of the delivered ones were so outside the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_and_deliveries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_MAX_orders_...
privateSFacct 7y ago
This is a good question. A number of possible answers (and no, pilot skill not the only one - though everyone is focusing on that and boeing). Maintenance. This issue develops IF the computer gets bad data from a sensor. Question - would this sort of thing get fixed more quickly in the US? For the Ethiopian crash we have in days leading up to crash errors in the system - all different flights * Capt side altimeter erratic, showed a decent and lower level then back to normal. * During approach at 1000' the aircraft started to roll right with the auto pilot engaged. * During approach at 8K altimeter rapidly descended and returned to normal - caused autopilot problems. * During takeoff altitude and vert speed on both PFDs showed erratic indications For Lion Air in days leading up an increase in warnings. Some excerpts. * Speed trim fail light and mach trim fail light * Auto throttle diconnect * Speed and Alt flag * Feel diff pressure - fail light illuminated * Maintenance light illuminated during landing Regulatory regime What's the local situation in terms of check rides, maintenance monitoring and cross checks, airline procedure monitoring etc. Ethiopia has a relatively stronger reputation here. Training The memory item in this situation is basically a revert to manual flight. There is a possibility that manual flight is not as common in some countries, particularly if they don't have a large General Aviation pool to pull from. This is a concern in US as well (automation reliance). The path to getting onto a jet in US is currently different than other places. To be a first officer takes 1,500+ hours and an ATP. That's a pretty high bar. This is a design issue I think as well -> should Boeing reasonably consider that there may be differences between pilot groups in terms of training pathways. I would suggest obviously yes. Is the FAA at fault because other countries may choose different approaches? That's less clear to me. BTW the FAA did a terrible job for a while with small charter operators in financial distress with bad maintenance for example - so the FAA has blindspots but their Part 121 stuff has a good record so far. The US system has had some amazing saves -> failures with airport bird control -> capt sully etc. Often these pilots aren't jet fighter pilots but have things like glider or small plane experience that is helpful. So systems break down in US, but saves happen. My US worries are maintenance given cost pressures and actually Air Traffic Control (given fatigue and some weakening of standards there around new hiring).

iamtheworstdev 7y ago

In all seriousness, i believe the reason why many think the crashes would not have happened in the US is because Southwest and others all ordered the planes with redundant sensors (in the area where it pertains to these crashes) whereas many overseas airlines did not.

simion314 7y ago
But did the checklist had the correct instructions on what to do in the case the extra alarm light would turn on? I think since MCAS was not disclosed there must not have been mentioned in the checklists either
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  The checklist for runaway stab trim is the same with MCAS -> but more likely and so a much more critical issue. Boeing should have updated pilots for sure - BUT many MCAS events may have occurred and been saved by the existing checklist which overlaps the issue.
temac 7y ago
It was my understanding that such redundancy for automation purposes did not even exist, and that despite having 2 AoA sensors only one was selected before a flight, with the computer switching the one to be used between each flight. Also Southwest certainly did not have all of the indicators at first, because they added some: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines-is-adding-new-angle-of-attack-indicators-to-its-737-max-fleet/ https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines... (note that pretty much nobody used that kind of indicator before, so I don't say that to put blame on Southwest) It was also my understanding that some alarms including the AoA disagree were optional and for a fee even though probably activated by only needing to switch a bit somewhere in the software. So if Southwest had AoA disagree from the beginning (I don't know), well that's cool, but my interpretation is more like: that's not cool that some other airlines did not have it because of the dubious commercial practices of Boeing.
- 7y ago