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But yet, part of the allure of hobby magazines, for instances, are the ads. Ads need not be scummy, and just because some are doesn't mean all are. Ads _can_ b

But yet, part of the allure of hobby magazines, for instances, are the ads. Ads need not be scummy, and just because some are doesn't mean all are. Ads _can_ be primarily informational without being "scummy" or "sleazy". Sure, yes, most of the ad industry is currently about being manipulative and invasive, but it need not be that way. We, as a society, need to figure out how to stop it from being that way across the board, because as you said, good actors will be at a disadvantage to sleazy actors.

Frondo 7y ago
This is a great, great point. Ads themselves aren't necessarily scummy or manipulative. I can't even think of the number of restaurants I've found through their ads, products I've ended up buying through ads, or services I learned about through advertising. Which is sort of the point -- I have interests and some money to spend, and ads tell me of new people (or familiar people with new products/foods) to spend it on. Specialized magazines (hobbyist, regional, etc) seem to hit the absolute right balance for this. People advertising in them know who they're advertising to, in general, and people picking them up know what they're getting; some interesting content (hopefully) and some ads relevant to their hobby/region. Online ads have gone way, way, wayyyyy too far in getting into the scummy hyper-profiling, and they're not even selling stuff I'm then interested in! So what's the point? I mean, in practical terms the point is to try and differentiate their profiles of me from other people's profiles of me -- marketing techniques applied to the business of marketing -- but in real terms, who (aside from the companies building these profiles) benefits? I'm personally holding out hope that the US will adopt a "you own your data and can determine its uses" legal framework, and bring the hammer down on anyone amassing profiles on the populace. Google, Equifax, Facebook, the million anonymous marketing and list-selling firms, all that stuff needs to come under heavy regulation.
liability 7y ago
Advertisements are designed to make you feel informed, rather than to actually inform you. When a product is bad, inferior to the competition or just generally harmful to you (think: sugary soda pop ads), advertising professionals will promote it with just as much vim and vigor, if not more. (To the extent that bad products get more enthusiastic advertising, in a perverse sense viewing ads might actually make you a more informed consumer if you deliberately avoid any product with slick marketing. However I cannot advocate for such an approach because I think the theoretical advantage here is washed out by the practical reality that advertising will effect you in ways contrary to your own interest, but in line with corporate interests.)
- jimktrains2 7y ago
  Going back to an older post of mine (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20035005 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20035005) Here are some examples from a 2010 model railroader. https://photos.app.goo.gl/RvRzECgs7MaTo7tP8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/RvRzECgs7MaTo7tP8 Some, especially the Kato model Amtrak one, have some aspects of an aspirational ad, but I don't know if I'd condem them as such. They usually, as the Kato one has, information about the specific items that are now available and often some "ambiance" information that many hobbiests, especially people new to the hobby like to look at. I don't mind ads like these as they're not designed to make you feel as though you need to purchase something to be better and they're not in a public space. They're they're to matter-of-factly says a service or product is available. I could also show you the local pennysaver or Craigslist. All of those are also add, but they're not the "aspirational" kind. They're more matter-of-factly that someone is selling so (used) item, or provides some kind of service, or that there is a garage or estate sale at such-and-such address. How else would this information be made readily and easily available?

Frondo 7y ago

This is a great, great point. Ads themselves aren't necessarily scummy or manipulative. I can't even think of the number of restaurants I've found through their ads, products I've ended up buying through ads, or services I learned about through advertising. Which is sort of the point -- I have interests and some money to spend, and ads tell me of new people (or familiar people with new products/foods) to spend it on. Specialized magazines (hobbyist, regional, etc) seem to hit the absolute right balance for this. People advertising in them know who they're advertising to, in general, and people picking them up know what they're getting; some interesting content (hopefully) and some ads relevant to their hobby/region. Online ads have gone way, way, wayyyyy too far in getting into the scummy hyper-profiling, and they're not even selling stuff I'm then interested in! So what's the point? I mean, in practical terms the point is to try and differentiate their profiles of me from other people's profiles of me -- marketing techniques applied to the business of marketing -- but in real terms, who (aside from the companies building these profiles) benefits? I'm personally holding out hope that the US will adopt a "you own your data and can determine its uses" legal framework, and bring the hammer down on anyone amassing profiles on the populace. Google, Equifax, Facebook, the million anonymous marketing and list-selling firms, all that stuff needs to come under heavy regulation.

liability 7y ago

Advertisements are designed to make you feel informed, rather than to actually inform you. When a product is bad, inferior to the competition or just generally harmful to you (think: sugary soda pop ads), advertising professionals will promote it with just as much vim and vigor, if not more. (To the extent that bad products get more enthusiastic advertising, in a perverse sense viewing ads might actually make you a more informed consumer if you deliberately avoid any product with slick marketing. However I cannot advocate for such an approach because I think the theoretical advantage here is washed out by the practical reality that advertising will effect you in ways contrary to your own interest, but in line with corporate interests.)

jimktrains2 7y ago
Going back to an older post of mine (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20035005 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20035005) Here are some examples from a 2010 model railroader. https://photos.app.goo.gl/RvRzECgs7MaTo7tP8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/RvRzECgs7MaTo7tP8 Some, especially the Kato model Amtrak one, have some aspects of an aspirational ad, but I don't know if I'd condem them as such. They usually, as the Kato one has, information about the specific items that are now available and often some "ambiance" information that many hobbiests, especially people new to the hobby like to look at. I don't mind ads like these as they're not designed to make you feel as though you need to purchase something to be better and they're not in a public space. They're they're to matter-of-factly says a service or product is available. I could also show you the local pennysaver or Craigslist. All of those are also add, but they're not the "aspirational" kind. They're more matter-of-factly that someone is selling so (used) item, or provides some kind of service, or that there is a garage or estate sale at such-and-such address. How else would this information be made readily and easily available?