6 ms·

Good compilation of the advice you often read about on the internet. However, a big factor in all of the solutions is having the support of the entire org/compa

by hysan 7y ago

Good compilation of the advice you often read about on the internet. However, a big factor in all of the solutions is having the support of the entire org/company. If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then to take back control, you are stuck fighting another battle on top of burnout. I've found that doing all the non-work bits of advice helps, but it doesn't reverse the trend. It only slows down your burn rate which can be dangerous. You begin to think it is under control when in reality, you're like a frog in a pot slowly being boiled alive. To really combat burnout, large influential companies need to target these types of articles at companies themselves, not individuals. We are beyond the point of calling out individuals. Notice how all of the language in this article (until #8) is centered around you. You are supposed to take full responsibility for burnout. It is your choice. Your lack of self-management is causing your burnout. But sometimes, it's really not you. It's them. I hope the community begins to realize that responsibility goes both ways and shifts the focus of these conversations onto companies. Don't put the entire onus of burnout on the employee. That is avoiding responsibility and too much of it can make it appear to be victim blaming. Start talking about how companies can change culture around this, train management to recognize it, and what it takes to make this a top-down effort instead of a bottom-up one. A good start to this conversation can be: What does Atlassian (or your company) do to prevent burnout throughout their company?

JulianMorrison 7y ago
> If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then ...give notice and quit. No company would do this if they weren't completely toxic.
- hysan 7y ago
  Far far easier said than done for many people. You never know a person's life situation - medical issues, financial obligations to family, etc. This also shifts the onus of the situation back onto the individual. Again, you are the one who determines if you burnout. No control? Just leave. If you stay, it's your fault if you burnout.
  - JulianMorrison 7y ago
    Valid, it is definitely a problem of companies having the power and workers not.
  - watwut 7y ago
    People who cant will have much better negotiating position when people who can actually leave set boundaries. Also, being software developer is not that bad job that you would be so much locked at one place. While there are some people who have no choice, many of us do have a choice. Crazy hours are not something driven solely by management.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Not everyone can. There are points in time at which this isn't viable. Those bordering on, or prone to, burnout, may have a lesser degree of capability to act on this. Internalising the costs to firms (and their investors and creditors) fostering burnout-inducing conditions may be a more effective mechanism. Destroying 2, or 5, or 10 years of peak-career productivity should carry costs.
taneq 7y ago
> If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no's" It's up to you to ensure that your "no's" can't be ignored. Really what shy programmers need is confidence and healthy boundaries.
- hysan 7y ago
  And if you're not a shy programmer who has shown schedules, estimates, timelines, and are also trying to prevent those you manage/mentor from being burntout? Or what if your direct manager actually agrees with you! But your combined arguments are being shot down for reasons of growth, culture, or they decide to change the metrics so when you do say no, your performance plummets and they now have more power in conversations? Yes, signs of a toxic culture. No, you cannot always just leave. It's unsurprising to see comments that revert to pinning the blame back on the employee. That's how the narrative has been formed and controlled. It's also a product of the "self-made person" idea where you ultimately have all the control over where you end up in life. As a side note - not everyone is speaking from the position of being a programmer. Burnout is affecting many other careers. This forum just happens to be tech centric, but I do hope that stereotypes and assumptions can be minimized.
  - taneq 7y ago
    Quoting my father-in-law (who is a senior civil estimator with experience on countless multi-million-dollar projects): "Do you want someone who will tell you want you want to hear? Or do you want someone who will tell you how much it's gonna cost?"
- squeaky-clean 7y ago
  While true, this doesn't have to actually mean being more assertive at your job. I worked at a place where I constantly had to be very up front about my boundaries and work limits. We would plan something, say some certain things can't be done for 2 weeks, and then two days later someone would come back and be like "So... about those tickets, could we actually squeeze them in this week? As well as all the other tickets?" I did get better at saying no and establishing my boundaries. But that itself is still exhausting. The best move I made was recognizing the culture there had shit respect for developer boundaries and switching to a company that does. There are places and people that will take advantage of the fact that many developers do not want to say no. Do get better at saying no. But also get away from those people.
Zeebrommer 7y ago
>all of the language in this article (until #8) is centered around you. You are supposed to take full responsibility for burnout. It is your choice. Your lack of self-management is causing your burnout. Yes, this! My company seems to be halfway there: acknowledging that burnout is a problem, but then turning that into helpful advice (eat healthy, take breaks, go work out, etc) that is focused on the individual, ignoring cultural factors and the total amount of work that gets taken on and needs to be done by X people in Y time.
- shams93 7y ago
  Yeah if you're asking people to do 20 hours work for 8 hours pay no amount of healthy advice can undo the damage done by a culture of unpaid triple time as the norm. After the 2008 downturn it got very easy to find labor and thus you could really over work people to a brutal level and not care. Now that the economy is slowing down you can expect a lot of employers to become more abusive as employees become a dime a dozen.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  Yeah. It's like overloading people constantly and then offering mediation classes so people can cope.
  - pdpi 7y ago
    "Your lung infection is not my fault because the office is filthy, it's your own fault for not taking your antibiotics"
  - wojciii 7y ago
    Wait .. this is exactly what my workplace is doing. I didn't attend the meditation because they clashed with my therapeutic daily walk..
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      My meditation teacher told me that the result of meditation shouldn’t be to tolerate BS but instead realizing that it is BS and changing things.
gerbilly 7y ago
> If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then to take back control, you are stuck fighting another battle on top of burnout. It's even worse than this because, all of the factors you mention are actual risk factors for burnout (pressures, lack of control, isolation, fighting)
notabee 7y ago
Way back in ancient times, employees formed unions to demand better working conditions instead of waiting for a company to benevolently provide them. Replacing burnt out employees and writing good PR articles is cheaper and easier than fixing the many systemic issues that lead to it. They might get better productivity out of non-burnt workers, but companies are afraid to invest in employees that could leave any time for better opportunities. For better or worse, this is the situation that is incentivized by at-will employment and other factors.
stebann 7y ago
> A good start to this conversation can be: What does Atlassian (or your company) do to prevent burnout throughout their company? I agree completely with this, since this is a health AND socio-cultural problem. Trying to solve the problems without the necessary cultural resources in any organization will just put a heavier weight on the worker, and it will eventually crack him. Without true commitment this is a Catch-22.

by hysan 7y ago

JulianMorrison 7y ago

> If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then ...give notice and quit. No company would do this if they weren't completely toxic.

hysan 7y ago
Far far easier said than done for many people. You never know a person's life situation - medical issues, financial obligations to family, etc. This also shifts the onus of the situation back onto the individual. Again, you are the one who determines if you burnout. No control? Just leave. If you stay, it's your fault if you burnout.
- JulianMorrison 7y ago
  Valid, it is definitely a problem of companies having the power and workers not.
- watwut 7y ago
  People who cant will have much better negotiating position when people who can actually leave set boundaries. Also, being software developer is not that bad job that you would be so much locked at one place. While there are some people who have no choice, many of us do have a choice. Crazy hours are not something driven solely by management.
dredmorbius 7y ago
Not everyone can. There are points in time at which this isn't viable. Those bordering on, or prone to, burnout, may have a lesser degree of capability to act on this. Internalising the costs to firms (and their investors and creditors) fostering burnout-inducing conditions may be a more effective mechanism. Destroying 2, or 5, or 10 years of peak-career productivity should carry costs.

taneq 7y ago

> If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no's" It's up to you to ensure that your "no's" can't be ignored. Really what shy programmers need is confidence and healthy boundaries.

hysan 7y ago
And if you're not a shy programmer who has shown schedules, estimates, timelines, and are also trying to prevent those you manage/mentor from being burntout? Or what if your direct manager actually agrees with you! But your combined arguments are being shot down for reasons of growth, culture, or they decide to change the metrics so when you do say no, your performance plummets and they now have more power in conversations? Yes, signs of a toxic culture. No, you cannot always just leave. It's unsurprising to see comments that revert to pinning the blame back on the employee. That's how the narrative has been formed and controlled. It's also a product of the "self-made person" idea where you ultimately have all the control over where you end up in life. As a side note - not everyone is speaking from the position of being a programmer. Burnout is affecting many other careers. This forum just happens to be tech centric, but I do hope that stereotypes and assumptions can be minimized.
- taneq 7y ago
  Quoting my father-in-law (who is a senior civil estimator with experience on countless multi-million-dollar projects): "Do you want someone who will tell you want you want to hear? Or do you want someone who will tell you how much it's gonna cost?"
squeaky-clean 7y ago
While true, this doesn't have to actually mean being more assertive at your job. I worked at a place where I constantly had to be very up front about my boundaries and work limits. We would plan something, say some certain things can't be done for 2 weeks, and then two days later someone would come back and be like "So... about those tickets, could we actually squeeze them in this week? As well as all the other tickets?" I did get better at saying no and establishing my boundaries. But that itself is still exhausting. The best move I made was recognizing the culture there had shit respect for developer boundaries and switching to a company that does. There are places and people that will take advantage of the fact that many developers do not want to say no. Do get better at saying no. But also get away from those people.

Zeebrommer 7y ago

>all of the language in this article (until #8) is centered around you. You are supposed to take full responsibility for burnout. It is your choice. Your lack of self-management is causing your burnout. Yes, this! My company seems to be halfway there: acknowledging that burnout is a problem, but then turning that into helpful advice (eat healthy, take breaks, go work out, etc) that is focused on the individual, ignoring cultural factors and the total amount of work that gets taken on and needs to be done by X people in Y time.

shams93 7y ago
Yeah if you're asking people to do 20 hours work for 8 hours pay no amount of healthy advice can undo the damage done by a culture of unpaid triple time as the norm. After the 2008 downturn it got very easy to find labor and thus you could really over work people to a brutal level and not care. Now that the economy is slowing down you can expect a lot of employers to become more abusive as employees become a dime a dozen.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
Yeah. It's like overloading people constantly and then offering mediation classes so people can cope.
- pdpi 7y ago
  "Your lung infection is not my fault because the office is filthy, it's your own fault for not taking your antibiotics"
- wojciii 7y ago
  Wait .. this is exactly what my workplace is doing. I didn't attend the meditation because they clashed with my therapeutic daily walk..
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    My meditation teacher told me that the result of meditation shouldn’t be to tolerate BS but instead realizing that it is BS and changing things.

gerbilly 7y ago

> If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then to take back control, you are stuck fighting another battle on top of burnout. It's even worse than this because, all of the factors you mention are actual risk factors for burnout (pressures, lack of control, isolation, fighting)

notabee 7y ago

Way back in ancient times, employees formed unions to demand better working conditions instead of waiting for a company to benevolently provide them. Replacing burnt out employees and writing good PR articles is cheaper and easier than fixing the many systemic issues that lead to it. They might get better productivity out of non-burnt workers, but companies are afraid to invest in employees that could leave any time for better opportunities. For better or worse, this is the situation that is incentivized by at-will employment and other factors.

stebann 7y ago

> A good start to this conversation can be: What does Atlassian (or your company) do to prevent burnout throughout their company? I agree completely with this, since this is a health AND socio-cultural problem. Trying to solve the problems without the necessary cultural resources in any organization will just put a heavier weight on the worker, and it will eventually crack him. Without true commitment this is a Catch-22.