4 ms·

I have no problem with reprimanding people that say caustic things about people while communicating in some project-specific forum. I personally draw the line a

I have no problem with reprimanding people that say caustic things about people while communicating in some project-specific forum. I personally draw the line at Linus' conduct in the past- he may have attacked people, but at least it was always entirely because of their code. However, people have started policing other, non-project forums as well. That, I do not abide. Just because the person that submitted that PR was an absolute racist bigot on twitter a decade ago (or even last night), it has no bearing on the quality of their code. As long as it stays out of their code and their PR.

jmcqk6 7y ago
>As long as it stays out of their code and their PR. That assumes that the only important thing about the ecosystem of a project is the code. The code is only going to be useful as long as there are people to continue building and maintaining it. I don't know about you, but I have a difficult time working with racists, regardless of the quality of their code. I'm not willing to overlook something like that just to get some code written. There are more important things than code.
- username90 7y ago
  > I have a difficult time working with racists Racists is such an overloaded term that this means basically nothing. It could mean that you refuse to work with people who burn crosses in black people's yards in which case basically everyone would agree with you, but it could mean that you refuse to work with people who made an ok-sign once without knowing that it had been adopted by white supremacists in which case most people would think you are ridiculous. When people say that we should leave politics outside of it they mean the second kind. In more remote open source projects some people advocate for the "everyone is anonymous" variant, in which case they think that nothing matters if the technical parts are good since they wont even know what they do outside of the project. But afaik not a lot of people argue for that in a normal workplace or for conferences.
  - jmcqk6 7y ago
    What exactly does 'politics' mean in this case? Any concerns that aren't related to code? Can you define it in simple terms that leaves no gray areas? Completely anonymous systems leads to abuse. This has been demonstrated over and over again. The most insidious kinds of racism do not involve burning crosses. Obviously just flashing the ok-sign doesn't make you a racist. But society has clearly demonstrated that we are perfectly willing to tolerate the more subtle instances of racism for many reasons. In an environment like that, it's no surprise that the targets of that behavior become incredibly suspicious and distrusting. The way to solve that problem is not to "leave politics out of it" or to complain that they are too sensitive. The way to solve that problem is to address the underlying problem.
    - belorn 7y ago
      I find people who assume men are prone to violence to be sexists. I also find people who dismisses struggles because someones skin is white and thus assumed "privileged" to be racists. I would prefer to not have to work with people who express such views but I can live with it if people just keep politics out of work and professional settings. Trying to address the underlying problem of why people has such views is a complex proposition and involves deep discussions based on evidence from neuroendocrinology, primatology, sociology, gender roles, social stratification, historical causes regarding each, and so on. It might very well be impossible if people are not open minded to the idea in the first place.
- TheCraiggers 7y ago
  >I don't know about you, but I have a difficult time working with racists, regardless of the quality of their code. Why? I'm genuinely curious here. Tangentially, I'm wondering about: Would you watch a movie made by a racist? Would you watch a movie starring a racist? Would you watch a movie where the Key Grip was a racist? Would you eat a sandwich prepared by a racist? Would you eat a cucumber grown by a racist? Would you read a book written by a racist? Would you read a book edited by a racist? Would you engage in civil discourse with a racist? I'm reminded of Steve Irwin. When asked if he minded taking money from unsavory people, he replied he'd take money from any source at all and use it to buy land to conserve it. I view code as the same way- that person is devoting time, a portion of their life, to freely write code for the betterment of all. That is not a free pass to treat people poorly; but if you dig hard enough in anybody's past, you'll probably find something to get upset about. I just think people shouldn't go looking for trouble.
  - jmcqk6 7y ago
    Yes, it does get complicated. I love music, including the music of Wagner, who was an extremely shitty person on top of antisemitism. Once I learned about that, I re-examined my opinion of him, and my appreciation of his music changed, but did not disappear. Part of the problem is that the world itself is incredibly complicated, and behaving ethically gets correspondingly complicated because of it (highlighted most excellently in The Good Place). If you notice, I didn't set a hard rule. I just said, I have a difficult time working with racists. I don't believe that you can set hard rules for any of these things. which leads to another part of the problem: People want simple rules for how they should act, and things that will absolve them of being completely responsible for their actions. These things do not exist, and will never exist. Everyone is always going to disagree about where the line should be drawn. As a society, we're terrible at managing those differences. We let our egos get in the way too often. I believe I am not racist, but I still recognize that I can do things that will feel racist to others. In fact, I have done racist things in the past unintentionally. When I was called out on it, instead of letting my ego respond, I listened, and because of that, I became a better person. If your intention is to be a kind person, then I've found that there generally isn't a problem in handling these things. If your intention is to be able to do what you want without consequences, or to protect your ego, then you're going to have problems.

jmcqk6 7y ago

>As long as it stays out of their code and their PR. That assumes that the only important thing about the ecosystem of a project is the code. The code is only going to be useful as long as there are people to continue building and maintaining it. I don't know about you, but I have a difficult time working with racists, regardless of the quality of their code. I'm not willing to overlook something like that just to get some code written. There are more important things than code.

username90 7y ago
> I have a difficult time working with racists Racists is such an overloaded term that this means basically nothing. It could mean that you refuse to work with people who burn crosses in black people's yards in which case basically everyone would agree with you, but it could mean that you refuse to work with people who made an ok-sign once without knowing that it had been adopted by white supremacists in which case most people would think you are ridiculous. When people say that we should leave politics outside of it they mean the second kind. In more remote open source projects some people advocate for the "everyone is anonymous" variant, in which case they think that nothing matters if the technical parts are good since they wont even know what they do outside of the project. But afaik not a lot of people argue for that in a normal workplace or for conferences.
- jmcqk6 7y ago
  What exactly does 'politics' mean in this case? Any concerns that aren't related to code? Can you define it in simple terms that leaves no gray areas? Completely anonymous systems leads to abuse. This has been demonstrated over and over again. The most insidious kinds of racism do not involve burning crosses. Obviously just flashing the ok-sign doesn't make you a racist. But society has clearly demonstrated that we are perfectly willing to tolerate the more subtle instances of racism for many reasons. In an environment like that, it's no surprise that the targets of that behavior become incredibly suspicious and distrusting. The way to solve that problem is not to "leave politics out of it" or to complain that they are too sensitive. The way to solve that problem is to address the underlying problem.
  - belorn 7y ago
    I find people who assume men are prone to violence to be sexists. I also find people who dismisses struggles because someones skin is white and thus assumed "privileged" to be racists. I would prefer to not have to work with people who express such views but I can live with it if people just keep politics out of work and professional settings. Trying to address the underlying problem of why people has such views is a complex proposition and involves deep discussions based on evidence from neuroendocrinology, primatology, sociology, gender roles, social stratification, historical causes regarding each, and so on. It might very well be impossible if people are not open minded to the idea in the first place.
TheCraiggers 7y ago
>I don't know about you, but I have a difficult time working with racists, regardless of the quality of their code. Why? I'm genuinely curious here. Tangentially, I'm wondering about: Would you watch a movie made by a racist? Would you watch a movie starring a racist? Would you watch a movie where the Key Grip was a racist? Would you eat a sandwich prepared by a racist? Would you eat a cucumber grown by a racist? Would you read a book written by a racist? Would you read a book edited by a racist? Would you engage in civil discourse with a racist? I'm reminded of Steve Irwin. When asked if he minded taking money from unsavory people, he replied he'd take money from any source at all and use it to buy land to conserve it. I view code as the same way- that person is devoting time, a portion of their life, to freely write code for the betterment of all. That is not a free pass to treat people poorly; but if you dig hard enough in anybody's past, you'll probably find something to get upset about. I just think people shouldn't go looking for trouble.
- jmcqk6 7y ago
  Yes, it does get complicated. I love music, including the music of Wagner, who was an extremely shitty person on top of antisemitism. Once I learned about that, I re-examined my opinion of him, and my appreciation of his music changed, but did not disappear. Part of the problem is that the world itself is incredibly complicated, and behaving ethically gets correspondingly complicated because of it (highlighted most excellently in The Good Place). If you notice, I didn't set a hard rule. I just said, I have a difficult time working with racists. I don't believe that you can set hard rules for any of these things. which leads to another part of the problem: People want simple rules for how they should act, and things that will absolve them of being completely responsible for their actions. These things do not exist, and will never exist. Everyone is always going to disagree about where the line should be drawn. As a society, we're terrible at managing those differences. We let our egos get in the way too often. I believe I am not racist, but I still recognize that I can do things that will feel racist to others. In fact, I have done racist things in the past unintentionally. When I was called out on it, instead of letting my ego respond, I listened, and because of that, I became a better person. If your intention is to be a kind person, then I've found that there generally isn't a problem in handling these things. If your intention is to be able to do what you want without consequences, or to protect your ego, then you're going to have problems.