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> Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority That's

> Western countries may not always live up to ideals with the pressures of migration, but it is disingenous to compare immigrants to a resident minority That's just one example that popped into my head. I can pick another example if you don't like this one. How about how black people are treated in the US? Not all of them are in concentration camps, but many of them are in jail for non violent "crimes" (for example for doing things that have since become legal in many states). Or how muslims are treated everywhere in the west? I'm not defending China, I'm just saying many countries do terrible things - also democratic ones (sometimes it's the goverment, sometimes it's the people).

nothrabannosir 7y ago
> I'm not defending China, I'm just saying many countries do terrible things - also democratic ones (sometimes it's the goverment, sometimes it's the people). Great, then you can write a blog post about that and post it to HN and we’ll discuss those atrocities on that post. Meanwhile let’s stay on topic here, and discuss an article written by a HK citizen to Chinese citizens about China. This is whataboutism, a classic conversational anti pattern that rears its head every single time China comes up on HN. It’s time to stop.
- askmike 7y ago
  On topic: He wants a different political system (democratic) and his arguments are that the current one did many bad things. My point is that changing the political system doesn't change the bad things he's talking about. As we can clearly see in many democratic systems in the world. I don't think I'll write a blogpost. Given the initial responses of my current comments I am sure it would get downvoted anyway.
  - vnorilo 7y ago
    Thank you for making a level argument. I think freedom of speech and press helps to bring abuses to daylight and rule of law is essential in reining them in. I believe both are more robust (but, not nearly perfect) in western democracies, and are included in this desire for reform.
    - askmike 7y ago
      > I think freedom of speech and press helps to bring abuses to daylight and rule of law is essential in reining them in. I agree that they can be important, but they don't always solve many problems. Sometimes they even create problems: for example all the "fake news" and entities abusing social media platforms to manipulate elections.
normalhuman 7y ago
Nothing is perfect, but dictatorship is worse. I live close what remains of the Berlin wall. People risked their lives to jump it and escape to the democratic side. Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why? I love China and I have a lot of empathy for the Chinese people. You have an amazing and ancient culture and I hope that you can release yourselves from oppression, gain control of your own government as a people, prosper and be happy. We are all human beings, fuck the dictators.
- panny 7y ago
  Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. >Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why? You've never heard of James Dresnok. Why? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5QZvOqlJM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5QZvOqlJM
  - normalhuman 7y ago
    > Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. I am not claiming that democracy will save Hong Kong from China. What I am saying is that democracy is better than no democracy, and no amount of doublespeak or whatabbautism is going to change that reality. "Eat this poison, it's good for you", it's what the Chinese autocrats are saying. Well, people might indeed have to eat it, but they don't have to believe that it is good for them. > You've never heard of James Dresnok. Why? Yes I did, and I'm sure you can probably find a similar case that is actually related to my example. The simple point is that, when you have a wall between a democracy (not a "democracy", like contemporary Russia) and an autocratic regime, the ratio of people making the jump in the direction of the dictatorship against people making the jump in the direction of the democracy is < .00001. It is probably not zero because of people with psychiatric issues, people who are in love with someone on the other side, who left family there... But it is pretty damn close to zero, and this is something you have to explain if you want to insist that democracy or no democracy is the same for people.
kbenson 7y ago
If you truly want to make it better, the solution is not to bring it up in response to external criticisms, where it lessens the impact of both, but in context where it can be assessed in semi-isolation, to preserve forward momentum of both subjects. What you've done here, whether on purpose or accident, is partake in a variant of whataboutism. The only people it helps are those against progress in both situations.
- askmike 7y ago
  I think that more people should understand that shitty people do shitty things. And they when they do they should be held accountable. We get a lot closer to fixing them. I'm just highlighting endless bikeshedding, imo human right violations just don't always have very much to do with the political system of a country. As such changing the political system in a country doesn't make all the human right violations magically disappear.

nothrabannosir 7y ago

> I'm not defending China, I'm just saying many countries do terrible things - also democratic ones (sometimes it's the goverment, sometimes it's the people). Great, then you can write a blog post about that and post it to HN and we’ll discuss those atrocities on that post. Meanwhile let’s stay on topic here, and discuss an article written by a HK citizen to Chinese citizens about China. This is whataboutism, a classic conversational anti pattern that rears its head every single time China comes up on HN. It’s time to stop.

askmike 7y ago
On topic: He wants a different political system (democratic) and his arguments are that the current one did many bad things. My point is that changing the political system doesn't change the bad things he's talking about. As we can clearly see in many democratic systems in the world. I don't think I'll write a blogpost. Given the initial responses of my current comments I am sure it would get downvoted anyway.
- vnorilo 7y ago
  Thank you for making a level argument. I think freedom of speech and press helps to bring abuses to daylight and rule of law is essential in reining them in. I believe both are more robust (but, not nearly perfect) in western democracies, and are included in this desire for reform.
  - askmike 7y ago
    > I think freedom of speech and press helps to bring abuses to daylight and rule of law is essential in reining them in. I agree that they can be important, but they don't always solve many problems. Sometimes they even create problems: for example all the "fake news" and entities abusing social media platforms to manipulate elections.

normalhuman 7y ago

Nothing is perfect, but dictatorship is worse. I live close what remains of the Berlin wall. People risked their lives to jump it and escape to the democratic side. Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why? I love China and I have a lot of empathy for the Chinese people. You have an amazing and ancient culture and I hope that you can release yourselves from oppression, gain control of your own government as a people, prosper and be happy. We are all human beings, fuck the dictators.

panny 7y ago
Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. >Nobody ever wanted to escape the democratic side and jump in the other direction. Why? You've never heard of James Dresnok. Why? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5QZvOqlJM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5QZvOqlJM
- normalhuman 7y ago
  > Russia is a democracy. The US was a democracy when it genocided the native Americans. askmike is right. Democracy alone won't help Hong Kong. China will not stop. Pacifist Hong Kong will be crushed, regardless the form of government. I am not claiming that democracy will save Hong Kong from China. What I am saying is that democracy is better than no democracy, and no amount of doublespeak or whatabbautism is going to change that reality. "Eat this poison, it's good for you", it's what the Chinese autocrats are saying. Well, people might indeed have to eat it, but they don't have to believe that it is good for them. > You've never heard of James Dresnok. Why? Yes I did, and I'm sure you can probably find a similar case that is actually related to my example. The simple point is that, when you have a wall between a democracy (not a "democracy", like contemporary Russia) and an autocratic regime, the ratio of people making the jump in the direction of the dictatorship against people making the jump in the direction of the democracy is < .00001. It is probably not zero because of people with psychiatric issues, people who are in love with someone on the other side, who left family there... But it is pretty damn close to zero, and this is something you have to explain if you want to insist that democracy or no democracy is the same for people.

kbenson 7y ago

If you truly want to make it better, the solution is not to bring it up in response to external criticisms, where it lessens the impact of both, but in context where it can be assessed in semi-isolation, to preserve forward momentum of both subjects. What you've done here, whether on purpose or accident, is partake in a variant of whataboutism. The only people it helps are those against progress in both situations.

askmike 7y ago
I think that more people should understand that shitty people do shitty things. And they when they do they should be held accountable. We get a lot closer to fixing them. I'm just highlighting endless bikeshedding, imo human right violations just don't always have very much to do with the political system of a country. As such changing the political system in a country doesn't make all the human right violations magically disappear.