5 ms·

Paris’ Problem with the Dead

26 points by Vigier 7y ago

Iv 7y ago
", at least in advanced capitalist nations such as the UK and the US, where the processes of secularisation have recently been distinctly uneven, we don’t quite know how to behave in places that, in Erin-Marie Legacey’s phrase, make space for the dead. I can remember provoking a similar morally outraged reaction when, a decade ago, I took my small children to the local cemetery for a picnic" I... what? Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. It is about empathy and not being an asshole. People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. And that author, talking about "advanced capitalist nations" like UK was one and France was stuck, like he seems to be, in the 19th century... A lot of things happened in France between the revolution (1789) and the first stable republic (1871). A lot of it had to do with religion and monarchism, which were highly political. Secularism would really reign triumphantly only at the very beginning of the 20th century with the 1905 law of separation between the church and the state and this has been a very crucial turning point. Talking about 19th century religious sentiment in France won't be relevant if you ignore the secularization process that has happened during the 20th century. Something, dare I say, the "advanced nation of UK", with its official religion and archbishops having a voice in legislative matters, has never gone through.
- flukus 7y ago
  > Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. Doesn't the burial itself have religious roots even when it's no longer administered by a church? Anecdotally, there has been a recent trend away from cemeteries altogether now that the religious reasoning isn't there, with people having there ashes scattered somewhere meaningful or kept with family. > People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. The last "funeral" I went to was an ashes scattering at the beach, which is basically a huge playground with kids running around everywhere. It didn't detract from the mourning.
  - Iv 7y ago
    I am not talking about funerals, which are weird one-off social events. I am talking about the typical crowd going to a cemetery. When you "have something to do" there it usually involves mourning and a trip to memory lane. You want some peace and a meditative atmosphere. It is not about the deceased, it is not about the magical fluff around the funerals, it is about the living and their grief. Bringing kids to play in the middle of cemetery is to me like bringing them in the middle of a library with a lot of people deep into their books. If you do that, you are an asshole. It is not about religion. It could be about culture, but I want to believe that what I am saying is pretty obvious to most Americans as well.
    - lostlogin 7y ago
      This is going to vary across cultures. I have seen cemetery picnics in South American cities, the UK, France and here in New Zealand. There were many many families at weekends at cemeteries in Chile. It seems that family picnics at the cemetery used to be common in the US too. It wouldn’t be appropriate during a funeral, but why is it not ok outside that time if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners? https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america.amp https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles...
      - Iv 7y ago
        "if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners?" Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry. Would you let your kids play in the middle of a reading room or a meditation session? Sure, some people do that in all cultures. And across all cultures, we use different expression to convey the sentiment "they are being assholes".
        coldtea 7y ago
        >Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry That's like your opinion. To quote a famous playwright: "Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.”
- saurik 7y ago
  https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-a...
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. It is about empathy and not being an asshole. People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. That's culture-specific. You don't bring kids playing next to a funeral, but occasional walks, strolls, etc, to a cemetery are quite common in many countries. For cultures that are not skittish with the dead, cemeteries are also big, peace-full, tree-laden, places. Also ideal to contemplate how short life is. In Mexico, of course, they also have all kinds of celebrations in cemeteries... But personal/family visits/strolls (and even picnics) have been a staple all around the world... https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/24/picnic-in-the-cemetery/ https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/24/picnic-in-the-ceme... https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/our-first-public-parks-the-forgotten-history-of-cemeteries/71818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/our-fir...
paggle 7y ago
Ultimately the dead cannot have a permanent resting place on this earth. There are 100 billion people who have died, if it takes 25 square feet to bury one, the space occupied by the dead will eclipse that occupied by the living. After 100 years or so burial plots should be recycled.
- Dreami 7y ago
  I think in Switzerland it's about 25 years until your plot gets recycled
- sametmax 7y ago
  Burial is something that humanity should be able to let go as a whole. It pollutes. It wastes resources and space. We need to find other ways to mourn, remember and symbolize. Ways that will let us treat the body as compost would be ideal, but hard to sell to the general population.
aoki 7y ago
There’s a relatively recent novel set during the removal of Les Innocents to the new catacombs (Pure, by Andrew Miller). A good read, and like many discussions of these events, it makes the obvious connection to the moribund Ancien Regime.

26 points by Vigier 7y ago

Iv 7y ago

", at least in advanced capitalist nations such as the UK and the US, where the processes of secularisation have recently been distinctly uneven, we don’t quite know how to behave in places that, in Erin-Marie Legacey’s phrase, make space for the dead. I can remember provoking a similar morally outraged reaction when, a decade ago, I took my small children to the local cemetery for a picnic" I... what? Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. It is about empathy and not being an asshole. People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. And that author, talking about "advanced capitalist nations" like UK was one and France was stuck, like he seems to be, in the 19th century... A lot of things happened in France between the revolution (1789) and the first stable republic (1871). A lot of it had to do with religion and monarchism, which were highly political. Secularism would really reign triumphantly only at the very beginning of the 20th century with the 1905 law of separation between the church and the state and this has been a very crucial turning point. Talking about 19th century religious sentiment in France won't be relevant if you ignore the secularization process that has happened during the 20th century. Something, dare I say, the "advanced nation of UK", with its official religion and archbishops having a voice in legislative matters, has never gone through.

flukus 7y ago
> Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. Doesn't the burial itself have religious roots even when it's no longer administered by a church? Anecdotally, there has been a recent trend away from cemeteries altogether now that the religious reasoning isn't there, with people having there ashes scattered somewhere meaningful or kept with family. > People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. The last "funeral" I went to was an ashes scattering at the beach, which is basically a huge playground with kids running around everywhere. It didn't detract from the mourning.
- Iv 7y ago
  I am not talking about funerals, which are weird one-off social events. I am talking about the typical crowd going to a cemetery. When you "have something to do" there it usually involves mourning and a trip to memory lane. You want some peace and a meditative atmosphere. It is not about the deceased, it is not about the magical fluff around the funerals, it is about the living and their grief. Bringing kids to play in the middle of cemetery is to me like bringing them in the middle of a library with a lot of people deep into their books. If you do that, you are an asshole. It is not about religion. It could be about culture, but I want to believe that what I am saying is pretty obvious to most Americans as well.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    This is going to vary across cultures. I have seen cemetery picnics in South American cities, the UK, France and here in New Zealand. There were many many families at weekends at cemeteries in Chile. It seems that family picnics at the cemetery used to be common in the US too. It wouldn’t be appropriate during a funeral, but why is it not ok outside that time if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners? https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america.amp https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles...
    - Iv 7y ago
      "if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners?" Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry. Would you let your kids play in the middle of a reading room or a meditation session? Sure, some people do that in all cultures. And across all cultures, we use different expression to convey the sentiment "they are being assholes".
      - coldtea 7y ago
        >Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry That's like your opinion. To quote a famous playwright: "Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.”
saurik 7y ago
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-america https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-in-cemeteries-a...
coldtea 7y ago
>Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery is not about religious education. It is about empathy and not being an asshole. People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it is appropriate to bring kids playing. That's culture-specific. You don't bring kids playing next to a funeral, but occasional walks, strolls, etc, to a cemetery are quite common in many countries. For cultures that are not skittish with the dead, cemeteries are also big, peace-full, tree-laden, places. Also ideal to contemplate how short life is. In Mexico, of course, they also have all kinds of celebrations in cemeteries... But personal/family visits/strolls (and even picnics) have been a staple all around the world... https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/24/picnic-in-the-cemetery/ https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/09/24/picnic-in-the-ceme... https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/our-first-public-parks-the-forgotten-history-of-cemeteries/71818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/our-fir...

paggle 7y ago

Ultimately the dead cannot have a permanent resting place on this earth. There are 100 billion people who have died, if it takes 25 square feet to bury one, the space occupied by the dead will eclipse that occupied by the living. After 100 years or so burial plots should be recycled.

Dreami 7y ago
I think in Switzerland it's about 25 years until your plot gets recycled
sametmax 7y ago
Burial is something that humanity should be able to let go as a whole. It pollutes. It wastes resources and space. We need to find other ways to mourn, remember and symbolize. Ways that will let us treat the body as compost would be ideal, but hard to sell to the general population.

aoki 7y ago

There’s a relatively recent novel set during the removal of Les Innocents to the new catacombs (Pure, by Andrew Miller). A good read, and like many discussions of these events, it makes the obvious connection to the moribund Ancien Regime.