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But you are allowed to do this right now. There is nothing stopping you from attempting to repair your own device. Why should Apple be required to make replacem

But you are allowed to do this right now. There is nothing stopping you from attempting to repair your own device. Why should Apple be required to make replacement parts available and manuals available to you at no cost, though? That doesn't seem pro-consumer or fair to Apple.

Someone 7y ago
If the public wants it, “Manuals at no cost” could be made into law, I think. Certainly if restricted to something like “products with at least $x in revenue” for large enough x, it wouldn’t be that burdensome on manufacturers. And unfair to Apple? Only if only Apple or a few companies would have to do that. Also, for replacement parts, in some markets there already are regulations. See for example https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-215_en.htm https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-215_en.htm for a discussion on finding the right balance between the protection of a car manufacturer’s designs and consumer’s rights to buy replacement parts made by third parties (I don’t know the end result of this discussion)
wrycoder 7y ago
I'm quite happy to pay for a BMW shop manual. I can buy genuine BMW parts with no problem, but I can't buy a genuine Apple iPhone battery, even from iFixit.
- dpkonofa 7y ago
  That's only because Apple wants to be the one to install its parts so that it can verify that the repair is done correctly. You can absolutely buy a third-party battery and install it yourself and Apple will do nothing to stop you.
  - labawi 7y ago
    Again, why should Apple have a monopoly on doing or permitting repairs with genuine components on devices sold in millions.
    - dpkonofa 7y ago
      No one is saying they should have a monopoly. If their logo is going to be on it, though, they should have a say in the quality of the repair. Millions of shitty repairs could do irreparable damage to their brand and business and they should at least have some ability to fight that. It'd be like me going around telling people that I'm doing things on your behalf and you having no way to keep me from doing that. Individuals have legal protections against that kind of thing. Right now, that hasn't been addressed yet legally in terms of companies.
      - Amezarak 7y ago
        Somehow the repair market for cars doesn’t have this problem - Honda and Ford have no say in the quality of my repairs if I don’t get it done at a dealership, even if OEM parts are used. The same and been historically true of almost every other company and consumer product, to the great benefit of consumers. Why should apple be different? Repairs are not being done on Apple’s behalf. They are being done on the consumers behalf. I don’t think your analogy makes sense. If Apple wants, they can create a certification process and emphasize that they strongly recommend going to certified repair shops, the same way car manufacturers want you go to go the dealer, but I can’t see any reason why they shouldn’t be forced to allow uncertified repair shops and sell them parts too.
        dpkonofa 7y ago
        >Somehow the repair market for cars doesn’t have this problem They absolutely do have this problem. There's a reason that there's a stereotype around the "shady" mechanic. That example is the perfect reason why these "Right to Repair" laws aren't always pro-consumer. In fact, the auto-repair industry is one of the top 3 industries regularly cited as having strong consumer distrust and the highest number of customer complaints. Customers have to be able to trust that the repair they're getting done is being done correctly. Apple asking for some kind of certification requirement or authorized training is absolutely pro-consumer.
        7y ago
  - muddi900 7y ago
    Apple does limit functionality if you do that: https://www.gsmarena.com/ios_124_partially_blocks_nonofficial_battery_replacements_on_iphones-news-38590.php https://www.gsmarena.com/ios_124_partially_blocks_nonofficia... This argument is pointless; Tech companies claim that their hardware is changed the world and their selling point is that these devices are essential. They then turn around and create artificial scarcity, by disabling features for old devices and inflating the prices for repair, to make maintaining these devices more expensive than buying a new one. I don't see, how as a consumer, am I supposed to support this position?
    - dpkonofa 7y ago
      No they don't limit it! There's a difference between "We won't give you this information because you didn't get the battery from us" vs. "We can't give you this information because we can't verify that this is a brand new battery". Battery health information is gained from usage patterns in the battery and from a connection that starts when the battery if first hooked up to the coprocessor in the iPhone's hardware. If you take an old battery from an authentic iPhone and put it in, you'd get the exact same message because it's not about third-parties or limiting what you can do. It's about giving accurate battery health information which cannot be done if the age and usage of the battery can't be verified. And please... tell me which features have been disabled for old devices. If anything, Apple is known in the industry for supporting their devices far longer than any other phone/device manufacturer. I think you're either being disingenuous with these arguments or you just really haven't done any kind of work to validate what you're saying.
      - muddi900 7y ago
        >There's a difference between "We won't give you this information because you didn't get the battery from us" vs. "We can't give you this information because we can't verify that this is a brand new battery" This requires a leap of trust that I am not willing to make. I do not believe Apple is being truthful here. >And please... tell me which features have been disabled for old devices. There was this huge scandal regarding Apple slowing down phones with older batteries without notifying the customers: https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-slows-down-older-iphone-battery-issues/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-slows-down-older-iphone-batt... They made it right by offering cheaper battery replacements for a year and battery monitoring software in iOS. The battery monitoring software still claims my 4 year old iphone 6 is running at peak performance, and that is not true. The same battery monitoring software that would stop working if I install third-party battery. Which is also why I believe the company is not being truthful; their software clearly is lying to me right now. >If anything, Apple is known in the industry for supporting their devices far longer than any other phone/device manufacturer. We would need to have a semantic discussion on what 'support' is; for example, why are some older devices running iOS9+ not support ad-blocking? If there is a genuine software-design reason, that it is bad software, since I can do it on desktop computers that are two decades old, and on a raspberry pi that has a fraction of the CPU power. There are plenty of examples, but my definition of support would extend far beyond the version number on the Settings > About going up. Yours might differ. >I think you're either being disingenuous with these arguments or you just really haven't done any kind of work to validate what you're saying. Why would you think that I am being disingenuous at all? Do you think I have some sort of agenda? what would the agenda be? My original comment targeted all hardware tech companies. Most want to make repair impossible or extremely difficult. Apple has been leading the charge, all the way back with Macs using the then obscure torx screws, but they are the norm now. As far as I know, Lenovo is the only company that has repairability as a design factor, even then only for their business lines. As for not doing the work, well as you can see I have. I am disappointed, however, that you would not extend me the courtesy of assuming I am not a complete idiot. I did so for you.
  - wrycoder 7y ago
    And I’ve changed several iPhone and Mac Air batteries myself, no problem. But, the replacement batteries are operationally inferior to the OEM batteries, even from iFixit. IMO, having iPhones in the wild that were repaired with non-OEM parts is worse for Apple’s reputation. Right to repair includes access to OEM parts, repair documentation, and test programs.
labawi 7y ago
Making replacement parts and (free) manuals available is not pro-consumer?
- dpkonofa 7y ago
  On its face, it sounds like it would be. It definitely gives more choices. It also opens up an entire world for consumers to get fleeced by shitty, shady third-party repair shops that have no accountability for a device/devices that most people are unequipped to deal with. Providing parts and manuals for car repairs seems like a very pro-consumer move until you look at the reality of the situation and see that people get fleeced by shady mechanics and repair shops so often that there's a stereotype around it. I'm all for accessibility but I think there needs to be some kind of accountability that goes along with it.

Someone 7y ago

If the public wants it, “Manuals at no cost” could be made into law, I think. Certainly if restricted to something like “products with at least $x in revenue” for large enough x, it wouldn’t be that burdensome on manufacturers. And unfair to Apple? Only if only Apple or a few companies would have to do that. Also, for replacement parts, in some markets there already are regulations. See for example https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-215_en.htm https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-215_en.htm for a discussion on finding the right balance between the protection of a car manufacturer’s designs and consumer’s rights to buy replacement parts made by third parties (I don’t know the end result of this discussion)

wrycoder 7y ago

I'm quite happy to pay for a BMW shop manual. I can buy genuine BMW parts with no problem, but I can't buy a genuine Apple iPhone battery, even from iFixit.

dpkonofa 7y ago
That's only because Apple wants to be the one to install its parts so that it can verify that the repair is done correctly. You can absolutely buy a third-party battery and install it yourself and Apple will do nothing to stop you.
- labawi 7y ago
  Again, why should Apple have a monopoly on doing or permitting repairs with genuine components on devices sold in millions.
  - dpkonofa 7y ago
    No one is saying they should have a monopoly. If their logo is going to be on it, though, they should have a say in the quality of the repair. Millions of shitty repairs could do irreparable damage to their brand and business and they should at least have some ability to fight that. It'd be like me going around telling people that I'm doing things on your behalf and you having no way to keep me from doing that. Individuals have legal protections against that kind of thing. Right now, that hasn't been addressed yet legally in terms of companies.
    - Amezarak 7y ago
      Somehow the repair market for cars doesn’t have this problem - Honda and Ford have no say in the quality of my repairs if I don’t get it done at a dealership, even if OEM parts are used. The same and been historically true of almost every other company and consumer product, to the great benefit of consumers. Why should apple be different? Repairs are not being done on Apple’s behalf. They are being done on the consumers behalf. I don’t think your analogy makes sense. If Apple wants, they can create a certification process and emphasize that they strongly recommend going to certified repair shops, the same way car manufacturers want you go to go the dealer, but I can’t see any reason why they shouldn’t be forced to allow uncertified repair shops and sell them parts too.
      - dpkonofa 7y ago
        >Somehow the repair market for cars doesn’t have this problem They absolutely do have this problem. There's a reason that there's a stereotype around the "shady" mechanic. That example is the perfect reason why these "Right to Repair" laws aren't always pro-consumer. In fact, the auto-repair industry is one of the top 3 industries regularly cited as having strong consumer distrust and the highest number of customer complaints. Customers have to be able to trust that the repair they're getting done is being done correctly. Apple asking for some kind of certification requirement or authorized training is absolutely pro-consumer.
        7y ago
- muddi900 7y ago
  Apple does limit functionality if you do that: https://www.gsmarena.com/ios_124_partially_blocks_nonofficial_battery_replacements_on_iphones-news-38590.php https://www.gsmarena.com/ios_124_partially_blocks_nonofficia... This argument is pointless; Tech companies claim that their hardware is changed the world and their selling point is that these devices are essential. They then turn around and create artificial scarcity, by disabling features for old devices and inflating the prices for repair, to make maintaining these devices more expensive than buying a new one. I don't see, how as a consumer, am I supposed to support this position?
  - dpkonofa 7y ago
    No they don't limit it! There's a difference between "We won't give you this information because you didn't get the battery from us" vs. "We can't give you this information because we can't verify that this is a brand new battery". Battery health information is gained from usage patterns in the battery and from a connection that starts when the battery if first hooked up to the coprocessor in the iPhone's hardware. If you take an old battery from an authentic iPhone and put it in, you'd get the exact same message because it's not about third-parties or limiting what you can do. It's about giving accurate battery health information which cannot be done if the age and usage of the battery can't be verified. And please... tell me which features have been disabled for old devices. If anything, Apple is known in the industry for supporting their devices far longer than any other phone/device manufacturer. I think you're either being disingenuous with these arguments or you just really haven't done any kind of work to validate what you're saying.
    - muddi900 7y ago
      >There's a difference between "We won't give you this information because you didn't get the battery from us" vs. "We can't give you this information because we can't verify that this is a brand new battery" This requires a leap of trust that I am not willing to make. I do not believe Apple is being truthful here. >And please... tell me which features have been disabled for old devices. There was this huge scandal regarding Apple slowing down phones with older batteries without notifying the customers: https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-slows-down-older-iphone-battery-issues/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-slows-down-older-iphone-batt... They made it right by offering cheaper battery replacements for a year and battery monitoring software in iOS. The battery monitoring software still claims my 4 year old iphone 6 is running at peak performance, and that is not true. The same battery monitoring software that would stop working if I install third-party battery. Which is also why I believe the company is not being truthful; their software clearly is lying to me right now. >If anything, Apple is known in the industry for supporting their devices far longer than any other phone/device manufacturer. We would need to have a semantic discussion on what 'support' is; for example, why are some older devices running iOS9+ not support ad-blocking? If there is a genuine software-design reason, that it is bad software, since I can do it on desktop computers that are two decades old, and on a raspberry pi that has a fraction of the CPU power. There are plenty of examples, but my definition of support would extend far beyond the version number on the Settings > About going up. Yours might differ. >I think you're either being disingenuous with these arguments or you just really haven't done any kind of work to validate what you're saying. Why would you think that I am being disingenuous at all? Do you think I have some sort of agenda? what would the agenda be? My original comment targeted all hardware tech companies. Most want to make repair impossible or extremely difficult. Apple has been leading the charge, all the way back with Macs using the then obscure torx screws, but they are the norm now. As far as I know, Lenovo is the only company that has repairability as a design factor, even then only for their business lines. As for not doing the work, well as you can see I have. I am disappointed, however, that you would not extend me the courtesy of assuming I am not a complete idiot. I did so for you.
- wrycoder 7y ago
  And I’ve changed several iPhone and Mac Air batteries myself, no problem. But, the replacement batteries are operationally inferior to the OEM batteries, even from iFixit. IMO, having iPhones in the wild that were repaired with non-OEM parts is worse for Apple’s reputation. Right to repair includes access to OEM parts, repair documentation, and test programs.

labawi 7y ago

Making replacement parts and (free) manuals available is not pro-consumer?

dpkonofa 7y ago
On its face, it sounds like it would be. It definitely gives more choices. It also opens up an entire world for consumers to get fleeced by shitty, shady third-party repair shops that have no accountability for a device/devices that most people are unequipped to deal with. Providing parts and manuals for car repairs seems like a very pro-consumer move until you look at the reality of the situation and see that people get fleeced by shady mechanics and repair shops so often that there's a stereotype around it. I'm all for accessibility but I think there needs to be some kind of accountability that goes along with it.