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Surgical residents are being apprenticed for their expected $400k-$1m job later in life. They are far from being impoverished, and if they need more than $50k/y

by kolbe 7y ago

Surgical residents are being apprenticed for their expected $400k-$1m job later in life. They are far from being impoverished, and if they need more than $50k/year, any bank will gladly lend to them at a low rate.

arkades 7y ago
The mean, inclusive of subspecialty surgeons, is somewhere around 375k. The minimum is not 400. But if it will make you feel any better, the same argument holds for pediatrics residents, who will go on to make an average of about 135 after their decade-plus of training and loans.
uxp100 7y ago
This is a good point, but it does put them in a temporarily highly exploitable position. In some sense they are being paid later in their career for the work they are doing now, and so have lots of incentive to put up with bad behavior. I see this as similar to "lottery ticket" fields like entertainment.
s3r3nity 7y ago
I think the argument is that one set of roles is highly skilled and requires a lot of education & investment in money & time to get to a $40-50k "apprenticeship" -- the other set of roles is not. Getting paid equally for both of those positions, regardless of future expectations, indicates that something might be off.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >I think the argument is that one set of roles is highly skilled and requires a lot of education & investment in money & time t Think of it like grad school cranked to 11. More hours, harder entry requirements, bigger stipend, massive payoff at the end.
jcranberry 7y ago
They get paid 50-60k a year to work absolutely ridiculous hours. I had a surgical resident for a roommate. He'd get home and if he went from the door to the bed without showering or relaxing he might be able to catch 5 hours of sleep before he had to get up and be off for another shift. We'd buy protein bars so he could eat something on the run otherwise he'd never have anything to eat on a full 24 hour shift. That goes on for 5+ years after already having been in school for 8 years. And it's not like they're just sitting around all day watching real doctors work or something. And the average pay for a general surgeon as of 2017 is 350k (before malpractice insurance).
- kolbe 7y ago
  I got paid even less (around negative $40k) to spend every waking hour 4th year of college to complete coursework, do varsity athletics, search for a job, and do an honors thesis. But these were investments in human capital.
  - jcranberry 7y ago
    I'm not sure I understand your point. They have already gone through 8 years of school which they definitely didn't get for free. Surgical residents then work for 5 more years working 100+ hours a week.

by kolbe 7y ago

arkades 7y ago

The mean, inclusive of subspecialty surgeons, is somewhere around 375k. The minimum is not 400. But if it will make you feel any better, the same argument holds for pediatrics residents, who will go on to make an average of about 135 after their decade-plus of training and loans.

uxp100 7y ago

This is a good point, but it does put them in a temporarily highly exploitable position. In some sense they are being paid later in their career for the work they are doing now, and so have lots of incentive to put up with bad behavior. I see this as similar to "lottery ticket" fields like entertainment.

s3r3nity 7y ago

I think the argument is that one set of roles is highly skilled and requires a lot of education & investment in money & time to get to a $40-50k "apprenticeship" -- the other set of roles is not. Getting paid equally for both of those positions, regardless of future expectations, indicates that something might be off.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>I think the argument is that one set of roles is highly skilled and requires a lot of education & investment in money & time t Think of it like grad school cranked to 11. More hours, harder entry requirements, bigger stipend, massive payoff at the end.

jcranberry 7y ago

They get paid 50-60k a year to work absolutely ridiculous hours. I had a surgical resident for a roommate. He'd get home and if he went from the door to the bed without showering or relaxing he might be able to catch 5 hours of sleep before he had to get up and be off for another shift. We'd buy protein bars so he could eat something on the run otherwise he'd never have anything to eat on a full 24 hour shift. That goes on for 5+ years after already having been in school for 8 years. And it's not like they're just sitting around all day watching real doctors work or something. And the average pay for a general surgeon as of 2017 is 350k (before malpractice insurance).

kolbe 7y ago
I got paid even less (around negative $40k) to spend every waking hour 4th year of college to complete coursework, do varsity athletics, search for a job, and do an honors thesis. But these were investments in human capital.
- jcranberry 7y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your point. They have already gone through 8 years of school which they definitely didn't get for free. Surgical residents then work for 5 more years working 100+ hours a week.