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What we are building is the perfect society for the rule of individualism. Capitalism is the god, greed is the motivation, and not being liable is how we be car

What we are building is the perfect society for the rule of individualism. Capitalism is the god, greed is the motivation, and not being liable is how we be careful. There's no way out. Even TNG predicted WWIII entire global population and for humanity to suffer its most embarrassing chapter to get out of it: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/World_War_III https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/World_War_III There are other modes of life, based on trust of mankind, instead of fear of it. That's the other thing TNG shows - all those people in Starfleet - they aren't being paid to be on that ship. They're trying to show that humanity is capable of post-capitalism. It doesn't have to be this way. (That's the planet Stallman lives - or at least wants to)

deleted 7y ago
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asdf21 7y ago
My God, these posts attacking capitalism get tedious. Capitalism is just a codification of people's wants / needs. It's structured demand mixed with some basic contract law to hold people accountable to their own promises. That's it. If you deride capitalism you're already implicitly saying that "what people want" is "bad". By condemning the system you're already implying that even the highest desires of humans aren't good enough. >There are other modes of life, based on trust of mankind Capitalism is already based on trust of mankind, since it is based on giving people what they desire, as long as it doesn't infringe on the basic human rights of others. There are other ways to allocate resources and all of them are FAR INFERIOR which has been shown time, and time and time again.
- devmunchies 7y ago
  capitalism != the free market. You can have a free market without usury and interest rates (using fees and equity to replace interest)
  - asdf21 7y ago
    What would you call that type of free market system? Is there a real world example?
- aluren 7y ago
  You're conflating market economies (that have been around since basically forever and that no one except the most hardcore anarcho-primitivists are attacking) and modern day capitalism (which has been around since the Industrial Revolution and is characterized by its lack of upper limit on wealth accumulation).
  - asdf21 7y ago
    Sure, fair enough, I'm conflating the two for the sake of simplicity, and frankly because the idea of a "limit on wealth accumulation" is a fairly muddy distinction. (A limit placed by whom? enforced how? etc. Even with soft limits this would still be called "capitalism" would it not?) I guarantee that most people, including the the person I'm responding to, do not make a distinction between market economies and capitalism in the manner you just did. He's talking about Star Trek utopia, nothing grounded in reality or history.
    - rhacker 7y ago
      I like how absolutist you are about your guarantee. Almost as if even if I did say there's a way forward with changes to capitalism and not necessarily having "Star Trek utopia" is not even an option for me. Do you speak for others all the time?
- rhacker 7y ago
  > My God, these posts attacking capitalism get tedious. This is hacker news. I've never said such-and-such's view on capitalism is so damn tedious. That's like a punch, an attempt to sway with no actual content. > Capitalism is just a codification of people's wants / needs. It's structured demand mixed with some basic contract law to hold people accountable to their own promises. That's it. If you deride capitalism you're already implicitly saying that "what people want" is "bad". By condemning the system you're already implying that even the highest desires of humans aren't good enough. You've basically set up what you think is a logic tautology for yourself - at this point nothing anyone can say can ever be useful in the context of humanity if it goes against capitalism. That's pretty useless in terms of progress. So it is impossible to have humans without capitalism? And going against that is going against humanity. Interesting take. I don't see any point in arguing that line of logic. You win. > Capitalism is already based on trust of mankind, since it is based on giving people what they desire, as long as it doesn't infringe on the basic human rights of others. There are other ways to allocate resources and all of them are FAR INFERIOR which has been shown time, and time and time again. Also, since the wheel has been invented, we shall not try to go further. Thanks for the optimism.
  - asdf21 7y ago
    Sorry to hit a sore spot, but there was plenty of "real content" in my post, which you didn't respond to. >You've basically set up what you think is a logic tautology for yourself - at this point nothing anyone can say can ever be useful in the context of humanity if it goes against capitalism. Correct. Capitalism is so efficient it's the sole reason we are able to cram 7B people on this little planet, for better or worse. Countries that move away from capitalism end up in such poor shape that they essentially collapse, and then you have tons of "economic refugees" everywhere. It's not impossible to have humans without capitalism, but it's definitely not possible to have 7B of them splitting resources as efficiently as we do now without it.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into generic ideological flamewar. Such discussions are tedious, nasty, and off topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
bena 7y ago
The ship also cleans itself. The Federation is a post-scarcity society. They've figured out how to change matter into energy and back again. That does change a lot of things. We don't get to the Federation without solving scarcity. And while no one is being paid to be on that ship (although that is debatable as there does seem to be some form of currency that individual Starfleet members receive and use), there is competition to be on that ship. Being on that ship is the compensation for the work. Being one of the few selected to essentially be in this sort of elite class is the privilege. And even on the ship, there are differences between crew members. The captain's quarters are better than the lower officers. The captain has his own private office just off the bridge. And being a television show and work of fiction, they get to gloss over a ton of stuff. The acquisition and creation of the materials to build something like the Enterprise is as much a fantasy in the work as is the fact that they can replicate Earth-like gravity in the middle of space.
- rhacker 7y ago
  I get all that - I am just kinda hoping for you know, something between what we have and what we look forward to / dream about. I won't be disappointed if we go further away from 1985 and closer to TNG even if we never reach it.
  - bena 7y ago
    I think you mean 1984. And our current system is driving us more towards TNG than 1984. Things are better now. We're more tolerant. More peaceful. By just about any measure you can take, we're becoming better.
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20830640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20830640 and marked it off-topic.
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asdf21 7y ago

My God, these posts attacking capitalism get tedious. Capitalism is just a codification of people's wants / needs. It's structured demand mixed with some basic contract law to hold people accountable to their own promises. That's it. If you deride capitalism you're already implicitly saying that "what people want" is "bad". By condemning the system you're already implying that even the highest desires of humans aren't good enough. >There are other modes of life, based on trust of mankind Capitalism is already based on trust of mankind, since it is based on giving people what they desire, as long as it doesn't infringe on the basic human rights of others. There are other ways to allocate resources and all of them are FAR INFERIOR which has been shown time, and time and time again.

devmunchies 7y ago
capitalism != the free market. You can have a free market without usury and interest rates (using fees and equity to replace interest)
- asdf21 7y ago
  What would you call that type of free market system? Is there a real world example?
aluren 7y ago
You're conflating market economies (that have been around since basically forever and that no one except the most hardcore anarcho-primitivists are attacking) and modern day capitalism (which has been around since the Industrial Revolution and is characterized by its lack of upper limit on wealth accumulation).
- asdf21 7y ago
  Sure, fair enough, I'm conflating the two for the sake of simplicity, and frankly because the idea of a "limit on wealth accumulation" is a fairly muddy distinction. (A limit placed by whom? enforced how? etc. Even with soft limits this would still be called "capitalism" would it not?) I guarantee that most people, including the the person I'm responding to, do not make a distinction between market economies and capitalism in the manner you just did. He's talking about Star Trek utopia, nothing grounded in reality or history.
  - rhacker 7y ago
    I like how absolutist you are about your guarantee. Almost as if even if I did say there's a way forward with changes to capitalism and not necessarily having "Star Trek utopia" is not even an option for me. Do you speak for others all the time?
rhacker 7y ago
> My God, these posts attacking capitalism get tedious. This is hacker news. I've never said such-and-such's view on capitalism is so damn tedious. That's like a punch, an attempt to sway with no actual content. > Capitalism is just a codification of people's wants / needs. It's structured demand mixed with some basic contract law to hold people accountable to their own promises. That's it. If you deride capitalism you're already implicitly saying that "what people want" is "bad". By condemning the system you're already implying that even the highest desires of humans aren't good enough. You've basically set up what you think is a logic tautology for yourself - at this point nothing anyone can say can ever be useful in the context of humanity if it goes against capitalism. That's pretty useless in terms of progress. So it is impossible to have humans without capitalism? And going against that is going against humanity. Interesting take. I don't see any point in arguing that line of logic. You win. > Capitalism is already based on trust of mankind, since it is based on giving people what they desire, as long as it doesn't infringe on the basic human rights of others. There are other ways to allocate resources and all of them are FAR INFERIOR which has been shown time, and time and time again. Also, since the wheel has been invented, we shall not try to go further. Thanks for the optimism.
- asdf21 7y ago
  Sorry to hit a sore spot, but there was plenty of "real content" in my post, which you didn't respond to. >You've basically set up what you think is a logic tautology for yourself - at this point nothing anyone can say can ever be useful in the context of humanity if it goes against capitalism. Correct. Capitalism is so efficient it's the sole reason we are able to cram 7B people on this little planet, for better or worse. Countries that move away from capitalism end up in such poor shape that they essentially collapse, and then you have tons of "economic refugees" everywhere. It's not impossible to have humans without capitalism, but it's definitely not possible to have 7B of them splitting resources as efficiently as we do now without it.
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into generic ideological flamewar. Such discussions are tedious, nasty, and off topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

bena 7y ago

The ship also cleans itself. The Federation is a post-scarcity society. They've figured out how to change matter into energy and back again. That does change a lot of things. We don't get to the Federation without solving scarcity. And while no one is being paid to be on that ship (although that is debatable as there does seem to be some form of currency that individual Starfleet members receive and use), there is competition to be on that ship. Being on that ship is the compensation for the work. Being one of the few selected to essentially be in this sort of elite class is the privilege. And even on the ship, there are differences between crew members. The captain's quarters are better than the lower officers. The captain has his own private office just off the bridge. And being a television show and work of fiction, they get to gloss over a ton of stuff. The acquisition and creation of the materials to build something like the Enterprise is as much a fantasy in the work as is the fact that they can replicate Earth-like gravity in the middle of space.

rhacker 7y ago
I get all that - I am just kinda hoping for you know, something between what we have and what we look forward to / dream about. I won't be disappointed if we go further away from 1985 and closer to TNG even if we never reach it.
- bena 7y ago
  I think you mean 1984. And our current system is driving us more towards TNG than 1984. Things are better now. We're more tolerant. More peaceful. By just about any measure you can take, we're becoming better.

dang 7y ago

Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20830640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20830640 and marked it off-topic.

deleted 7y ago

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