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>In general, most Google services require running nonfree Javascript code. If you refuse to run that (for instance, by running LibreJS), you'll see that you sho

by jasode 7y ago

>In general, most Google services require running nonfree Javascript code. If you refuse to run that (for instance, by running LibreJS), you'll see that you should not use those services. Well, I use Google Maps just about every single day so Stallman's advice banning Javascript is way too hardcore for me. But for sake of discussion, let's entertain what he's suggesting. What are the most practical alternatives to avoid Google's Javascript maps in 2019? - other websites like Bing Maps and even openstreetmap.org also don't work without Javascript - using local software like old CDROMs of map software means I'm using data that's 20 years old because no mainstream software publisher (e.g. Microsoft Streets, DeLorme, etc) is selling it and only cover a region instead of the entire globe. Also that CD software is proprietary and not free-as-in-libre. - using folding paper maps like Rand McNally have similar problems to CDROMs -- the maps are old and more cumbersome. - other alternatives I overlooked are ... ? Inevitably, this leads to the condescending question... "How did we get by _before_ Google Maps?!?" I got by in the past by making the usage of maps more inconvenient. EDIT to replies about OpenStreetMap: Last I checked, OpenStreetMap doesn't have publicly accessible satellite images or 3D/birdseye views or street-level 360 degree views. Openstreetcam is missing a lot of roads. I use that type of photographic imagery even more than the line drawings of streets. Is there a practical non-Javascript alternative for that data?

overcast 7y ago
The most practical alternative is using a real map.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  I remember the days of using real maps instead of mapping apps on my phone. Those days fucking sucked.
  - overcast 7y ago
    Well, if you're going to cry about using something that runs on the entire web, then that's your alternative. Or grab a Garmin, though I'm sure Stallman probably believes there is a mind control listening device in those too.
goda90 7y ago
OSM data can be used with all sorts of software though and not just the website. I imagine at least one of them is free software.
- cycloptic 7y ago
  The website (and all of the mapping tools) are free software. The repo is on their github: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website For mobile I recommend OsmAnd: https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  I doubt there are any web clients that don't use JavaScript, though. How would that even work? Like, I can understand being peeved at the use of JS for text that really doesn't need it. But something like a mapping app, I don't see how you get around it.
  - dllthomas 7y ago
    But the complaint is being misread. In "require running nonfree Javascript code" Stallman isn't saying "require running Javascript code, which we all know is inherently nonfree". He's saying "require running particular Javascript code which in this instance is nonfree." A web client that uses free (as in speech, not as in bird) Javascript code is presumably fine.
0x5002 7y ago
Probably OpenStreetMap/Nominatim or something along those lines.
millstone 7y ago
It won't satisfy rms but seriously: Apple Maps, which is actually good now. The Maps app on Macs and iOS does not use JavaScript. It also supports satellite and 3d views, and the street view shipping in a month looks better than what Google offers: https://twitter.com/rvdsteege/status/1139264604918485005 https://twitter.com/rvdsteege/status/1139264604918485005
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Note that Look Around only supports a small set of locations currently.
- eloisant 7y ago
  He doesn't want to use Javascript because he doesn't want non-free software (the JS code) running on his computer. Using a proprietary software on a proprietary OS is not going to be any better.
  - adrian_mrd 7y ago
    Serious question: why is JavaScript not free (as in ‘freedom’ to use)? Who is the owner of JS and do web browsers have to pay for it? edit: tried to make my questions clearer :)
    - hiq 7y ago
      You can read https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html. Note that the discussion here is about JavaScript code, not JavaScript the programming language (there seems to have been some confusion in this thread). Also note that being able to read the code doesn't entail that the code is free as in freedom (i.e., released under a corresponding license). If you share some non-trivial[0] code of yours on GitHub, or deploy a website with your own non-trivial JS code, it still fully belongs to you, and people are not free to reuse it without asking you. [0]: you probably cannot claim much for a hello world even if you wrote it yourself
      - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
saagarjha 7y ago
He's not banning JavaScript, he's banning nonfree JavaScript. I'm sure he'd be happy to use a mapping service that was licensed under the AGPL.
153791098c 7y ago
He has nothing against javascript. He is against non-free javascript which is just non-free software running in your browser. Using Openstreetmap is fine because you don't have to run non-free software on your computer. Almost all proprietary javascript is obfuscated and tracks everything you do, will identify you and can compromise your system. It's no different than any other non-free software maybe with some better (but nowhere near perfect) isolation from your system provided by the browser you are using. There are also pretty good free mobile map apps that are on f-droid.

by jasode 7y ago

overcast 7y ago

The most practical alternative is using a real map.

TulliusCicero 7y ago
I remember the days of using real maps instead of mapping apps on my phone. Those days fucking sucked.
- overcast 7y ago
  Well, if you're going to cry about using something that runs on the entire web, then that's your alternative. Or grab a Garmin, though I'm sure Stallman probably believes there is a mind control listening device in those too.

goda90 7y ago

OSM data can be used with all sorts of software though and not just the website. I imagine at least one of them is free software.

cycloptic 7y ago
The website (and all of the mapping tools) are free software. The repo is on their github: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website For mobile I recommend OsmAnd: https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand
TulliusCicero 7y ago
I doubt there are any web clients that don't use JavaScript, though. How would that even work? Like, I can understand being peeved at the use of JS for text that really doesn't need it. But something like a mapping app, I don't see how you get around it.
- dllthomas 7y ago
  But the complaint is being misread. In "require running nonfree Javascript code" Stallman isn't saying "require running Javascript code, which we all know is inherently nonfree". He's saying "require running particular Javascript code which in this instance is nonfree." A web client that uses free (as in speech, not as in bird) Javascript code is presumably fine.

0x5002 7y ago

Probably OpenStreetMap/Nominatim or something along those lines.

millstone 7y ago

It won't satisfy rms but seriously: Apple Maps, which is actually good now. The Maps app on Macs and iOS does not use JavaScript. It also supports satellite and 3d views, and the street view shipping in a month looks better than what Google offers: https://twitter.com/rvdsteege/status/1139264604918485005 https://twitter.com/rvdsteege/status/1139264604918485005

saagarjha 7y ago
Note that Look Around only supports a small set of locations currently.
eloisant 7y ago
He doesn't want to use Javascript because he doesn't want non-free software (the JS code) running on his computer. Using a proprietary software on a proprietary OS is not going to be any better.
- adrian_mrd 7y ago
  Serious question: why is JavaScript not free (as in ‘freedom’ to use)? Who is the owner of JS and do web browsers have to pay for it? edit: tried to make my questions clearer :)
  - hiq 7y ago
    You can read https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html. Note that the discussion here is about JavaScript code, not JavaScript the programming language (there seems to have been some confusion in this thread). Also note that being able to read the code doesn't entail that the code is free as in freedom (i.e., released under a corresponding license). If you share some non-trivial[0] code of yours on GitHub, or deploy a website with your own non-trivial JS code, it still fully belongs to you, and people are not free to reuse it without asking you. [0]: you probably cannot claim much for a hello world even if you wrote it yourself
    - 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

saagarjha 7y ago

He's not banning JavaScript, he's banning nonfree JavaScript. I'm sure he'd be happy to use a mapping service that was licensed under the AGPL.

153791098c 7y ago

He has nothing against javascript. He is against non-free javascript which is just non-free software running in your browser. Using Openstreetmap is fine because you don't have to run non-free software on your computer. Almost all proprietary javascript is obfuscated and tracks everything you do, will identify you and can compromise your system. It's no different than any other non-free software maybe with some better (but nowhere near perfect) isolation from your system provided by the browser you are using. There are also pretty good free mobile map apps that are on f-droid.