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Wow, this is up there with that hilariously tone-deaf Google blog post about cookies and privacy [1]. People want full control over their devices, both software

Wow, this is up there with that hilariously tone-deaf Google blog post about cookies and privacy [1]. People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. This thinly veiled propaganda isn't fooling anyone. [1] https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/building-a-more-private-web/ https://www.blog.google/products/chrome/building-a-more-priv...

gruez 7y ago
>People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. Maybe HN readers, but not most of the population. How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes.
- rahuldottech 7y ago
  > If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes. Open devices which you have full control over can be made more secure. With a locked down device, you rely on the manufacturers' implementations, which may not get audited or regularly patched.
  - dymk 7y ago
    Nobody is doing hardware and software security better than Apple right now. Certainly not the open source community. Apple supports devices for 5+ years, you’re throwing up strawmen.
- la_barba 7y ago
  Given that argument, Microsoft, Apple and other OS makers will pretty soon ship you operating systems without admin privileges, because those sneaky hackerZ might install backdoors...
  - gruez 7y ago
    >Microsoft, Apple and other OS makers will pretty soon ship you operating systems without admin privileges That's actually how all mobile operating systems work right now. You don't get root (admin). The only way to get it is to jailbreak/root, which essentially involves running a privilege escalation exploit or patching the operating system. In any case it's definitely not as simple as "sudo" or "run as administrator". However, even without root, most users manage just fine. They can browse the web, edit documents, play games, and install whatever apps they want. There's no reason why this model can't be extended to desktop operating systems. You can't do it on mac/windows yet because of legacy reasons (eg. needing to install legacy drivers or apps).
- shims 7y ago
  > How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? Millions of people installed Fortnite mobile without an appstore, you should ask them. This kind of industry-wide myopia indicates that there's an opportunity for disruption, and I'm glad EA recognized it. > If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes. But you get a device that records your life intimately and is one subpoena to Google or Apple away from making your life very, very difficult.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >> How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? >Millions of people installed Fortnite mobile without an appstore, you should ask them. That's a mischaracterization of my argument. I never claimed they couldn't sideload an app or that it was difficult. After all, all they had to do was follow the on-screen instructions. Furthermore, sideloading wasn't helping them. The user went through more steps to install a game just so epic could skip the 30% play store tax. Maybe epic passed the savings on the consumer instead of lining their profits (ha!), but the only entity that sideloading clearly helped was epic. >But you get a device that records your life intimately and is one subpoena to Google or Apple away from making your life very, very difficult. * you can opt out of the tracking/uploading to google/apple * even if you opted into tracking/uploading, there's things that aren't but local malware can get (eg. emails, phone recordings) * requiring a subpoena requires judicial approval and leaves a paper trail. it's also not an option for some groups (eg. foreign governments). there's a reason why mercenary hacking firms (hacking team, NSO group, DarkMatter) are a thing.
snazz 7y ago
> People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. Do they though? While I think it's sad how much computing devices have become locked down, I'm also noticing (as the family "IT helpdesk") that non-technical people I know are getting themselves into a lot less trouble with malware and scams on locked-down, secure mobile devices than they did a decade ago on Windows PCs. My teenage nephew is pretty interested in computers and programming, and he's running Linux on an old laptop. He has full control over that but is happy to concede some control over his smartphone because he doesn't think he'll be doing any programming or anything that requires "full control" on it anyway. On Android having complete control over the software is pretty much required to avoid the privacy-invading junk that comes with it by default; Apple seems to have done a good job of creating a satisfactory experience for technical and non-technical people alike.
drivingmenuts 7y ago
> People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. I ain’t got Time for that shit no more. I grew up and realized there’s only so much productive time in the day and maintaining my own stuff eats into that.
- vernie 7y ago
  I had all the time in world for customization when I was in middle school. Now I just want something that works.
- la_barba 7y ago
  Luckily, you can pay other people to do that. Apple prevents a customer from getting their own device repaired at a reputable repair shop of their choice.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Isn’t that the entire point of the article is that Apple is allowing repairs at “reputable shops”. And how do you “choose” a reputable shop without knowing where the parts come from?
    - la_barba 7y ago
      The 'article', if we are to be charitable here, is simply a press release. There is no substance to it, and we'll have to wait to see what parts they actually provide. >And how do you “choose” a reputable shop without knowing where the parts come from? You do it either based on brand, word-of-mouth, recommendations, online reviews, or a number of other ways people have been using to find reputable service centers for decades. People who came before us fought hard and we have established a precedent for repair in many many industries so that companies like Apple are not able to rip us off by denying right to repair, and denying legitimate repair shops the ability to purchase legitimate parts.
      - somebadguy 7y ago

gruez 7y ago

>People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. Maybe HN readers, but not most of the population. How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes.

rahuldottech 7y ago
> If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes. Open devices which you have full control over can be made more secure. With a locked down device, you rely on the manufacturers' implementations, which may not get audited or regularly patched.
- dymk 7y ago
  Nobody is doing hardware and software security better than Apple right now. Certainly not the open source community. Apple supports devices for 5+ years, you’re throwing up strawmen.
la_barba 7y ago
Given that argument, Microsoft, Apple and other OS makers will pretty soon ship you operating systems without admin privileges, because those sneaky hackerZ might install backdoors...
- gruez 7y ago
  >Microsoft, Apple and other OS makers will pretty soon ship you operating systems without admin privileges That's actually how all mobile operating systems work right now. You don't get root (admin). The only way to get it is to jailbreak/root, which essentially involves running a privilege escalation exploit or patching the operating system. In any case it's definitely not as simple as "sudo" or "run as administrator". However, even without root, most users manage just fine. They can browse the web, edit documents, play games, and install whatever apps they want. There's no reason why this model can't be extended to desktop operating systems. You can't do it on mac/windows yet because of legacy reasons (eg. needing to install legacy drivers or apps).
shims 7y ago
> How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? Millions of people installed Fortnite mobile without an appstore, you should ask them. This kind of industry-wide myopia indicates that there's an opportunity for disruption, and I'm glad EA recognized it. > If I'm a lawyer/politician/activist, I want a locked down device so someone can't install a backdoor if I lose sight of it for a few minutes. But you get a device that records your life intimately and is one subpoena to Google or Apple away from making your life very, very difficult.
- gruez 7y ago
  >> How does allowing sideloaded apps or unlocked bootloaders help the average soccer mom? >Millions of people installed Fortnite mobile without an appstore, you should ask them. That's a mischaracterization of my argument. I never claimed they couldn't sideload an app or that it was difficult. After all, all they had to do was follow the on-screen instructions. Furthermore, sideloading wasn't helping them. The user went through more steps to install a game just so epic could skip the 30% play store tax. Maybe epic passed the savings on the consumer instead of lining their profits (ha!), but the only entity that sideloading clearly helped was epic. >But you get a device that records your life intimately and is one subpoena to Google or Apple away from making your life very, very difficult. * you can opt out of the tracking/uploading to google/apple * even if you opted into tracking/uploading, there's things that aren't but local malware can get (eg. emails, phone recordings) * requiring a subpoena requires judicial approval and leaves a paper trail. it's also not an option for some groups (eg. foreign governments). there's a reason why mercenary hacking firms (hacking team, NSO group, DarkMatter) are a thing.

snazz 7y ago

> People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. Do they though? While I think it's sad how much computing devices have become locked down, I'm also noticing (as the family "IT helpdesk") that non-technical people I know are getting themselves into a lot less trouble with malware and scams on locked-down, secure mobile devices than they did a decade ago on Windows PCs. My teenage nephew is pretty interested in computers and programming, and he's running Linux on an old laptop. He has full control over that but is happy to concede some control over his smartphone because he doesn't think he'll be doing any programming or anything that requires "full control" on it anyway. On Android having complete control over the software is pretty much required to avoid the privacy-invading junk that comes with it by default; Apple seems to have done a good job of creating a satisfactory experience for technical and non-technical people alike.

drivingmenuts 7y ago

> People want full control over their devices, both software and hardware. I ain’t got Time for that shit no more. I grew up and realized there’s only so much productive time in the day and maintaining my own stuff eats into that.

vernie 7y ago
I had all the time in world for customization when I was in middle school. Now I just want something that works.
la_barba 7y ago
Luckily, you can pay other people to do that. Apple prevents a customer from getting their own device repaired at a reputable repair shop of their choice.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Isn’t that the entire point of the article is that Apple is allowing repairs at “reputable shops”. And how do you “choose” a reputable shop without knowing where the parts come from?
  - la_barba 7y ago
    The 'article', if we are to be charitable here, is simply a press release. There is no substance to it, and we'll have to wait to see what parts they actually provide. >And how do you “choose” a reputable shop without knowing where the parts come from? You do it either based on brand, word-of-mouth, recommendations, online reviews, or a number of other ways people have been using to find reputable service centers for decades. People who came before us fought hard and we have established a precedent for repair in many many industries so that companies like Apple are not able to rip us off by denying right to repair, and denying legitimate repair shops the ability to purchase legitimate parts.
    - somebadguy 7y ago