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I feel like this is an end-run attempt to avoid right-to-repair legislation. While I hope for the best from this program, it seems to little to late and in dir

I feel like this is an end-run attempt to avoid right-to-repair legislation. While I hope for the best from this program, it seems to little to late and in direct opposition of prior arguments they’ve made concerning third-party repairs and parts distribution. I feel like this will just end up being used in court to support their side of the right-to-repair debate.

snazz 7y ago
It could be, but it also seems to be a satisfactory compromise from all sides. Customers get independent repair services with genuine parts, repair services don't need to jump through as many hoops to be considered first-class, and Apple avoids getting attacked as much over right-to-repair laws.
- magashna 7y ago
  Yet to be proven, and right-to-repair isn't only concerned with Apple. I'm sure farmers with John Deere tractors are also on board for these laws. They should continue demanding these laws despite any attempts at compromise.
- jorvi 7y ago
  And if I am capable enough to service my own device, how would I get the parts? At least I'm assuming Apple will not allow those independent repair shops to sell parts to individuals.
  - ben509 7y ago
    It's hard to see how they'd enforce that. You get a bill with $0 for labor and $x for materials, you just bought parts.
    - jakobegger 7y ago
      The parts alone are probably not enough. A lot of repairs require expensive tools (there was a video circling the net of an iPhone display calibration device -- if you want a proper repair, you need to calibrate the display after replacing it) Also, increasingly there's authentication chips on parts like batteries and you need to somehow match them to make your phone not complain about 3rd party parts. So I assume you need some way to authorize each repair...
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      They may not benefit much from bothering to do so. It's unlikely to be high volume.
- la_barba 7y ago
  What is the basis of judging this program as satisfactory?
  - TremendousJudge 7y ago
    "apple stops getting complaints"
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  Assuming this move is actually genuine, and not for show, ie parts aren't nearly impossible to obtain, or use in actuality.
  - r00fus 7y ago
    Of course this needs to be verified. At least they're making a move this direction.
- gizmo686 7y ago
  Except it is being done at the discretion of Apple, which means they can unilaterally end it or change the terms once the pressure goes down. It also means that there is still no obligation for any other company to do likewise. If Apple was geniune, they would do this while lobbying for right to repair legislation.
  - dpkonofa 7y ago
    They are... Genuine question, do you honestly not know that Apple has provided their own recommendations for RTR laws and modifications to the current proposals or are you making some other point by saying that?
    - gizmo686 7y ago
      Link? Every time I see "Apple" and "right to repair law" in the same sentence, Apple is opposing the legislation.
      - dpkonofa 7y ago
        This is the best I can provide, at the moment: https://apple.slashdot.org/story/19/03/28/1810247/internal-documents-show-apple-is-capable-of-implementing-right-to-repair-legislation https://apple.slashdot.org/story/19/03/28/1810247/internal-d... Apple and its lobbyists aren't opposed to "Right to Repair" legislation, they're opposed to the currently proposed legislation because it requires them to make concessions to the process without any kind of guidance or oversight of the repairs made using the parts that they would be forced to provide. The link shows that, even prior to the Right to Repair bills proposed in most states, Apple was already developing a framework, internally, to find a way to allow third-party repair centers to repair their products while also maintaining some level of quality control. Unsurprisingly, this is exactly the announcement that was made today. Unfortunately, I can't find the link that I was actually looking for because any search for the info I'm looking for is immediately drowned out by the Vice article mentioned in the post I just linked or some blogspam that just links to it. Suffice it to say, if they were opposed to third parties repairing their products, they wouldn't have allowed the repairs previously and they wouldn't have planned something out like this for over a year and a half.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  This doesn't seem like a good compromise at all. Right-to-repair is about anyone having the right to repair a device in their possession--not just the few "authorized businesses" that the manufacturer blesses with the power. For most cars, I can repair it myself, or I can take it to Joe down the street for him to repair it, or I can take it to a professional repair business, or I can take it to the dealership. I have the choice. Same goes for appliances, furniture, and many electronic devices. This is not a radical idea. Why does there need to be compromise on it?
  - dpkonofa 7y ago
    But you are allowed to do this right now. There is nothing stopping you from attempting to repair your own device. Why should Apple be required to make replacement parts available and manuals available to you at no cost, though? That doesn't seem pro-consumer or fair to Apple.
    - Someone 7y ago
      If the public wants it, “Manuals at no cost” could be made into law, I think. Certainly if restricted to something like “products with at least $x in revenue” for large enough x, it wouldn’t be that burdensome on manufacturers. And unfair to Apple? Only if only Apple or a few companies would have to do that. Also, for replacement parts, in some markets there already are regulations. See for example https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-215_en.htm https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-215_en.htm for a discussion on finding the right balance between the protection of a car manufacturer’s designs and consumer’s rights to buy replacement parts made by third parties (I don’t know the end result of this discussion)
    - wrycoder 7y ago
      I'm quite happy to pay for a BMW shop manual. I can buy genuine BMW parts with no problem, but I can't buy a genuine Apple iPhone battery, even from iFixit.
      - dpkonofa 7y ago
benologist 7y ago
Apple will be the only supplier of parts, so if they fail to make repairing the devices illegal [1] they will at least be able to control who is repairing them. This allows them to squash any dissenting voices, like when their iOS developer guidelines officially warned developers not to tell news outlets about stupid things Apple was doing to them [2]. If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps. [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/30/apple-right-to-repair-consumer-harm/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/30/apple-right-to-repair-c... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer...
- faissaloo 7y ago
  So embrace, extend, extinguish then?
wastedhours 7y ago
It may also create additional arbitrage in the second-hand market to compel people to opt for Apple Care more often. If they want to juice the numbers with some more extended warranty sales they can create (or rather, return to...) a two-tier repair model where you can verify if a device has been serviced direct by them or a third party and then use that as an incentive to offer the end user that they'll get more for selling it down the line (like cars are more valuable second hand with "main dealer service history")?
r00fus 7y ago
If you read up on the program it's more geared towards allowing customers to fix their own issues, and less of "lets go back to reliance on independent repair stores". It also tells me Apple is comfortable enough with their services revenue to stop desperately pushing for increasing device sales every quarter. I have a 3 year old phone (iPhone7+) but barring some really new awesome features I'd be happy to continue spending on the Apple ecosystem (music, apps, subscriptions, etc) and service the old phone - though if the new offering is nice, I would probably upgrade too.
- whalesalad 7y ago
  The performance boost you will see from an upgrade will blow your mind.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    iPhone 7+ is a pretty capable phone. - Sent from my iPhone SE
  - r00fus 7y ago
    I dunno, I used to log several hundred hours of calls alone in a month on my iPhone (for work mainly) but now it's a lot less. I'm not thrilled about FaceID.
    - kshacker 7y ago
      So you cut down your phone use because of FaceID? Did your needs change or did you start using a second device or something?
  - dzhiurgis 7y ago
    Current iPhones are on par with 2018 MacBooks and shreds quad-core i7 2017 MacBooks. It's mind blowing.
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      Citation needed. Laptops can have faster storage and much higher thermal and battery budgets especially when plugged in. I expect you are going to cite something that shows an artificial benchmark run for 3 seconds.
esmi 7y ago
Although this program is initially lunching in the US, according to the statement, it is quickly expanding to other countries so I suspect this is really about making repairs to existing units outside the US. Many places have huge iPhone install bases but not a single official apple store anywhere (Moscow is an example). Has Apple made any official statements or prior arguments on third party repair? I’ve seen a lot of speculation and inference online but I don’t recall ever seeing an official statement from Apple on third party repair.
zepto 7y ago
If they respond to pressure without the need for legislation isn’t that a good thing? Surely that is what being responsible means. Unless you are an authoritarian who wants to legislate for the sake of it.
- labawi 7y ago
  Or it is partial and a temporary ploy to sway away the legislation while its support is active and strong.
  - zepto 7y ago
    By your logic, no company should respond to public opinion because people like you will call for legislation anyway.
    - labawi 7y ago
      Do you require examples of companies making concessions, promises and proclaim 'self-regulation' in the face of imminent legislation, only to slowly claw it all back as public pressure fades? If companies wish to avoid legislation, I believe they should respond to public opinion before the pressure becomes so strong legislation is imminent.
      - zepto 7y ago
        It’s not really pressure then, is it?
snarfy 7y ago
Does right to repair extend to right to install any app? I really believe it does and this is a major reason they are fighting so hard against it.

snazz 7y ago

It could be, but it also seems to be a satisfactory compromise from all sides. Customers get independent repair services with genuine parts, repair services don't need to jump through as many hoops to be considered first-class, and Apple avoids getting attacked as much over right-to-repair laws.

magashna 7y ago
Yet to be proven, and right-to-repair isn't only concerned with Apple. I'm sure farmers with John Deere tractors are also on board for these laws. They should continue demanding these laws despite any attempts at compromise.
jorvi 7y ago
And if I am capable enough to service my own device, how would I get the parts? At least I'm assuming Apple will not allow those independent repair shops to sell parts to individuals.
- ben509 7y ago
  It's hard to see how they'd enforce that. You get a bill with $0 for labor and $x for materials, you just bought parts.
  - jakobegger 7y ago
    The parts alone are probably not enough. A lot of repairs require expensive tools (there was a video circling the net of an iPhone display calibration device -- if you want a proper repair, you need to calibrate the display after replacing it) Also, increasingly there's authentication chips on parts like batteries and you need to somehow match them to make your phone not complain about 3rd party parts. So I assume you need some way to authorize each repair...
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    They may not benefit much from bothering to do so. It's unlikely to be high volume.
la_barba 7y ago
What is the basis of judging this program as satisfactory?
- TremendousJudge 7y ago
  "apple stops getting complaints"
throwaway2048 7y ago
Assuming this move is actually genuine, and not for show, ie parts aren't nearly impossible to obtain, or use in actuality.
- r00fus 7y ago
  Of course this needs to be verified. At least they're making a move this direction.
gizmo686 7y ago
Except it is being done at the discretion of Apple, which means they can unilaterally end it or change the terms once the pressure goes down. It also means that there is still no obligation for any other company to do likewise. If Apple was geniune, they would do this while lobbying for right to repair legislation.
- dpkonofa 7y ago
  They are... Genuine question, do you honestly not know that Apple has provided their own recommendations for RTR laws and modifications to the current proposals or are you making some other point by saying that?
  - gizmo686 7y ago
    Link? Every time I see "Apple" and "right to repair law" in the same sentence, Apple is opposing the legislation.
    - dpkonofa 7y ago
      This is the best I can provide, at the moment: https://apple.slashdot.org/story/19/03/28/1810247/internal-documents-show-apple-is-capable-of-implementing-right-to-repair-legislation https://apple.slashdot.org/story/19/03/28/1810247/internal-d... Apple and its lobbyists aren't opposed to "Right to Repair" legislation, they're opposed to the currently proposed legislation because it requires them to make concessions to the process without any kind of guidance or oversight of the repairs made using the parts that they would be forced to provide. The link shows that, even prior to the Right to Repair bills proposed in most states, Apple was already developing a framework, internally, to find a way to allow third-party repair centers to repair their products while also maintaining some level of quality control. Unsurprisingly, this is exactly the announcement that was made today. Unfortunately, I can't find the link that I was actually looking for because any search for the info I'm looking for is immediately drowned out by the Vice article mentioned in the post I just linked or some blogspam that just links to it. Suffice it to say, if they were opposed to third parties repairing their products, they wouldn't have allowed the repairs previously and they wouldn't have planned something out like this for over a year and a half.
ryandrake 7y ago
This doesn't seem like a good compromise at all. Right-to-repair is about anyone having the right to repair a device in their possession--not just the few "authorized businesses" that the manufacturer blesses with the power. For most cars, I can repair it myself, or I can take it to Joe down the street for him to repair it, or I can take it to a professional repair business, or I can take it to the dealership. I have the choice. Same goes for appliances, furniture, and many electronic devices. This is not a radical idea. Why does there need to be compromise on it?
- dpkonofa 7y ago
  But you are allowed to do this right now. There is nothing stopping you from attempting to repair your own device. Why should Apple be required to make replacement parts available and manuals available to you at no cost, though? That doesn't seem pro-consumer or fair to Apple.
  - Someone 7y ago
    If the public wants it, “Manuals at no cost” could be made into law, I think. Certainly if restricted to something like “products with at least $x in revenue” for large enough x, it wouldn’t be that burdensome on manufacturers. And unfair to Apple? Only if only Apple or a few companies would have to do that. Also, for replacement parts, in some markets there already are regulations. See for example https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-215_en.htm https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-215_en.htm for a discussion on finding the right balance between the protection of a car manufacturer’s designs and consumer’s rights to buy replacement parts made by third parties (I don’t know the end result of this discussion)
  - wrycoder 7y ago
    I'm quite happy to pay for a BMW shop manual. I can buy genuine BMW parts with no problem, but I can't buy a genuine Apple iPhone battery, even from iFixit.
    - dpkonofa 7y ago

benologist 7y ago

Apple will be the only supplier of parts, so if they fail to make repairing the devices illegal [1] they will at least be able to control who is repairing them. This allows them to squash any dissenting voices, like when their iOS developer guidelines officially warned developers not to tell news outlets about stupid things Apple was doing to them [2]. If you run to the press and trash us, it never helps. [1] https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/30/apple-right-to-repair-consumer-harm/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/04/30/apple-right-to-repair-c... [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20141226094343/https://developer...

faissaloo 7y ago
So embrace, extend, extinguish then?

wastedhours 7y ago

It may also create additional arbitrage in the second-hand market to compel people to opt for Apple Care more often. If they want to juice the numbers with some more extended warranty sales they can create (or rather, return to...) a two-tier repair model where you can verify if a device has been serviced direct by them or a third party and then use that as an incentive to offer the end user that they'll get more for selling it down the line (like cars are more valuable second hand with "main dealer service history")?

r00fus 7y ago

If you read up on the program it's more geared towards allowing customers to fix their own issues, and less of "lets go back to reliance on independent repair stores". It also tells me Apple is comfortable enough with their services revenue to stop desperately pushing for increasing device sales every quarter. I have a 3 year old phone (iPhone7+) but barring some really new awesome features I'd be happy to continue spending on the Apple ecosystem (music, apps, subscriptions, etc) and service the old phone - though if the new offering is nice, I would probably upgrade too.

whalesalad 7y ago
The performance boost you will see from an upgrade will blow your mind.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  iPhone 7+ is a pretty capable phone. - Sent from my iPhone SE
- r00fus 7y ago
  I dunno, I used to log several hundred hours of calls alone in a month on my iPhone (for work mainly) but now it's a lot less. I'm not thrilled about FaceID.
  - kshacker 7y ago
    So you cut down your phone use because of FaceID? Did your needs change or did you start using a second device or something?
- dzhiurgis 7y ago
  Current iPhones are on par with 2018 MacBooks and shreds quad-core i7 2017 MacBooks. It's mind blowing.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    Citation needed. Laptops can have faster storage and much higher thermal and battery budgets especially when plugged in. I expect you are going to cite something that shows an artificial benchmark run for 3 seconds.

esmi 7y ago

Although this program is initially lunching in the US, according to the statement, it is quickly expanding to other countries so I suspect this is really about making repairs to existing units outside the US. Many places have huge iPhone install bases but not a single official apple store anywhere (Moscow is an example). Has Apple made any official statements or prior arguments on third party repair? I’ve seen a lot of speculation and inference online but I don’t recall ever seeing an official statement from Apple on third party repair.

zepto 7y ago

If they respond to pressure without the need for legislation isn’t that a good thing? Surely that is what being responsible means. Unless you are an authoritarian who wants to legislate for the sake of it.

labawi 7y ago
Or it is partial and a temporary ploy to sway away the legislation while its support is active and strong.
- zepto 7y ago
  By your logic, no company should respond to public opinion because people like you will call for legislation anyway.
  - labawi 7y ago
    Do you require examples of companies making concessions, promises and proclaim 'self-regulation' in the face of imminent legislation, only to slowly claw it all back as public pressure fades? If companies wish to avoid legislation, I believe they should respond to public opinion before the pressure becomes so strong legislation is imminent.
    - zepto 7y ago
      It’s not really pressure then, is it?

snarfy 7y ago

Does right to repair extend to right to install any app? I really believe it does and this is a major reason they are fighting so hard against it.