6 ms·

The New Nomads of VanLife Reflect an Enduring Divide

47 points by benmarks 7y ago

Ancalagon 7y ago
Whats the rundown on CoL to do something like this?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  $800-1200/month if you have no payment for the vehicle.
  - lozaning 7y ago
    If you've got a cushy valley tech job you can do it for _way_ less than this. I work out, shower, eat, charge all my batteries, use the internet, etc at work, and then park overnight on Shoreline, so there is essentially zero cost of living. Im not counting the cost of things I would still be paying for if I lived in my cupertino apartment though, so like gas, car insurance, car maintenance, health insurance, laundry, etc. I think my one cost would be about $10 worth of bulk silica desiccant every month to keep the moisture in the car under control while I sleep in it.
    - peteretep 7y ago
      Is Shoreline a specific place?
      - vichu 7y ago
        Shoreline Blvd is a street in Mountain View, CA.
    - swyx 7y ago
      > bulk silica desiccant what? i have never heard of this. what happens if you dont do this? mold? and is this just due to extra respiration from you sleeping in it?
      - lozaning 7y ago
        It's a bit for mold mitigation, but mostly for personal comfort. Cars aren't 100% airtight, but there is essentially zero circulation while parked. Over the course of sleeping for ~7 hours your breath will humidify the air enough to build up pretty significant moisture on the insides of your windows. Which if the reflectx cutouts in every window didn't give away, definitely let's passersby know theres a person in there. So to mitigate against that and not wake up sweaty in a super muggy car, I buy these little things at the dollar store that are essentially plastic cups with a one way moisture membrane over the top of them and several ounces of silica desicant. I also made a foam board cutout thing that slots into the sunroof space in the headliner. Then made cutouts for two USB fans (intake and exhaust) that I run off a 20,000mah USB battery. With the air circulation and the desiccant it stays relatively comfortable temp/humidity wise, or at least no worse than it is outside.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
leggomylibro 7y ago
I can empathize with these people. It feels like a form of Stockholm's syndrome, where we're starting to come to grips with the idea that we will never escape an economic situation that I can only describe as tap-dancing on quicksand. If we can never achieve a stable life anyways, why bother seeking one? And if tomorrow is probably going to be harder than today, why put off the things that people used to put on their bucket lists?
- wallace_f 7y ago
  It doesn't have to be a bad thing. My ex-girlfriend and I spent over a year in Australia, most of which was circumnavigating the country in the campervan I built. It was amazing, I would without a doubt do that kind of thing my whole life if I could be a 20 y/o until the day I died. We only spent about 500 usd/pp/month and were really comfortable. We had most of what we wanted and ate well. Learn how to cook, don't buy junk food and the best things, like surfing, are free. I made money on the van since I did all building and repairs myself. Doesn't lend much gravitas, but it was a good life and I hope to build another campervan to use in the future. I'm quite scared of this in America though with our culture, crime, and police. I can also believe it is certainly not for everyone.
  - timmaah 7y ago
    > I'm quite scared of this in America Don't be. I've done it for 7 years and counting. Have met awesome people and never hassled or bad interactions.
    - tunap 7y ago
      Yep I've been rambling about 23 months now. Savings went from - balance to 5 digits not blowing it on rent. No problems, whatsoever. The key ia to not loiter in one place too long, don't leave a mess(cleaning up helps, alot) & be courteous to randoms & LEOs. It would be a reduced SoL to rent again, IMO. *I do have a job that requires travel(paid), so I drive across multiple states or fly out of the closest airport qhen required. When I'm not working, I want to be out hiking/paddling/skiing, anyway.
lazyeye 7y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/vandwellers https://www.reddit.com/r/vandwellers
Hnrobert42 7y ago
I pulled the ripcord, sold my house, and moved to SE Asia in 2015. My biggest expenses by far were flights back to the US to pick up meds not available in asia, said meds, and Western insurance that would cover me abroad (which means non-ACA, thus no med/pre-existing coverage). By 2017 I needed a job as much for the money as for sanity. Now I have a fully remote one. I still hop back and forth between VN and the US. I keep thinking I should pick a place and settle down, but I think in doing so I would feel suffocated. When I feel stress about the pollution and corruption in VN, I comfort myself with the thought that Americans have done enough “good” in VN, and I should leave it be. When I feel stress about Trump’s judicial appointments or our fractured culture, I think, “Welp, I’ll be leaving soon. So long and thanks for all the cheese.” (In Asia, I do miss good cheese.) I worry that this detachment will isolate me over time. I work hard to stay in touch with friends. I often reroute to cities to which my friends have themselves scattered. My expenses, aside from flights and meds, plummeted. When everything must fit in your suitcase, a purchase must be evaluated in terms of what similarly-sized item you can lose. Only in the past few months did I finally take a one year lease in Saigon. It is cheaper than 5 months of short-term rental. It is nice to finally be able to buy a desk and a proper monitor. But I hurt a little giving up the satisfaction, maybe sense of superiority, in being self-contained. I don’t know what is next for me. Maybe that is what I like about my lifestyle. But I take comfort in knowing that I have come by it honestly.
- inawarminister 7y ago
  Have you learned Vietnamese language? Do you have local friends? Any interest or activities you like that's transcultural - like gearheads, hiking, cooking, arts? Just curious.
  - Hnrobert42 7y ago
    I learned Vietnamese well enough to have basic conversations about who I am and what I am doing in Vietnam. I had to study 20 hrs/wk for 3 months, though. Learning VN made learning Spanish seem preposterously easy. I do have local friends. Some through dates that turned into friends. Some through a running group. In general, I found it hard to make VN friends, though I think that is more about my introversion than anything.
heyiforgotmypwd 7y ago
AMA: I've lived in cars and now a VW for almost a decade. (Disclaimer: The nick is an ironic attempt at humor, not trolling.)
- an_ko 7y ago
  It's expect many people to have these questions: Why did you start? Why have you continued? What's your current setup? Are you happy with it? What's your routine? Where do you shower, use the toilet, and do laundry? What part of the world are you in? Any legal/climate/social challenges?
  - heyiforgotmypwd 7y ago
    FAQ: 1. Saving money then and now. It's paid for itself every year, even with maintenance. In general, I'd rather be considerably poorer than a stressed, servile servant to the 1%. My motto is: it's easier to not spend a dollar that it is to make it. 2. Early water-cooled VW Vanagon / Type 2 (T3) Westfalia. It's currently having a no out-of-pocket warranty engine swap. Also, it will need some bodywork and a paint job at some point, but it's alright otherwise. Doing over again with a larger budget, I would get a GMC Savannah or an early 90's Westfalia just before the move to the Eurovan, and one that has a GoWesty 2.3L motor and EMS. In general, I maybe biased, but a compact van has been more stealthy, convenient and practical than monstrous RV's I see all about. 3a. Shower: Gym and I also have lots of Dr Bronners. 3b. Toilet: Gyms or whatever is open nearby. For rare real emergencies, also carry biobags and empty bottles that can be disposed-of in trash. I think the improper disposal of biowaste is one of the greatest sources of community conflict because people with under-treated mental illnesses or lacking personal hygiene are rarely/never proactively assigned social workers to potty train them / make biowaste disposal bags available to prevent gross situations. (perhaps it's viewed like drug needle exchange programs "any help enables") 3c. Laundry: Coin-op laundry. I haven't been very far from civilization in a while, so haven't had to use a bucket and clothesline in a long time. 4a. Silicon Valley. 4b: Legal: There were prohibitions in the past and still exist in many areas, but not in the locations I'm usually at. The Ninth Circuit ruled regarding California, and the majority of cities don't want to risk big lawsuits by harassing people because there are many pro-bono lawyers helping vehicle dwellers/homeless maintain their rights and dignity. Instead, they're pushing mostly poor people as a group, in subtle ways, further to the margins and further into desperation by passing ordinances based on vehicle height, parking time-of-day and requiring parking permits. 4c: Climate: Summer: It gets hot inside for a couple of months, so it's good to find shaded or garage parking. Winter: It's relatively mild weather here, but I have a -40 sleeping bag if it gets too cold. I suggest anyone with electronics they'd like to keep working sleep with them to prevent condensation corrosion and Li-ion low capacity issues. 4d: Social: No one wants an old, fugly, ADD on the spectrum. Trust me. Invisibility is best. 4e: Deliveries: It's a pain when a vendor wants to deliver to a physical address (think food, large mail items or prescriptions). There are workarounds.
RileyJames 7y ago
I’ve been doing van life for about 15 months across CA & US. Being thrifty, with plenty of savings, it’s an easy life. But I’ve met lots of people along the road trying to live and work in a van. Most recently in New York (Williamsburg). Some are doing well, it’s a choice. Others have nearly been forced into it due to some unlucky financial situations. And I fear for them, they’re one more financial upset from homelessness. And apparently we’re in a booming economy.
krapp 7y ago
I can understand the nomadic life as an economic necessity, but I'm kind of disgusted at rich, entitled hipsters playing homeless for the romance of the Bohemian lifestyle. Especially in a country that lines their public spaces with spikes and guillotines[0,1] to drive the actual homeless out of sight and out of mind. [0]https://www.kqed.org/arts/13861966/barts-fare-evasion-crackdown-exposes-the-deadly-elegance-of-hostile-design https://www.kqed.org/arts/13861966/barts-fare-evasion-crackd... [1]https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kzm53n/photos-of-the-most-egregious-anti-homeless-architecture https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kzm53n/photos-of-the-most...
- draw_down 7y ago
  But this is just a pose, this attitude does not save anyone from homelessness or help anything.

47 points by benmarks 7y ago

Ancalagon 7y ago

Whats the rundown on CoL to do something like this?

toomuchtodo 7y ago
$800-1200/month if you have no payment for the vehicle.
- lozaning 7y ago
  If you've got a cushy valley tech job you can do it for _way_ less than this. I work out, shower, eat, charge all my batteries, use the internet, etc at work, and then park overnight on Shoreline, so there is essentially zero cost of living. Im not counting the cost of things I would still be paying for if I lived in my cupertino apartment though, so like gas, car insurance, car maintenance, health insurance, laundry, etc. I think my one cost would be about $10 worth of bulk silica desiccant every month to keep the moisture in the car under control while I sleep in it.
  - peteretep 7y ago
    Is Shoreline a specific place?
    - vichu 7y ago
      Shoreline Blvd is a street in Mountain View, CA.
  - swyx 7y ago
    > bulk silica desiccant what? i have never heard of this. what happens if you dont do this? mold? and is this just due to extra respiration from you sleeping in it?
    - lozaning 7y ago
      It's a bit for mold mitigation, but mostly for personal comfort. Cars aren't 100% airtight, but there is essentially zero circulation while parked. Over the course of sleeping for ~7 hours your breath will humidify the air enough to build up pretty significant moisture on the insides of your windows. Which if the reflectx cutouts in every window didn't give away, definitely let's passersby know theres a person in there. So to mitigate against that and not wake up sweaty in a super muggy car, I buy these little things at the dollar store that are essentially plastic cups with a one way moisture membrane over the top of them and several ounces of silica desicant. I also made a foam board cutout thing that slots into the sunroof space in the headliner. Then made cutouts for two USB fans (intake and exhaust) that I run off a 20,000mah USB battery. With the air circulation and the desiccant it stays relatively comfortable temp/humidity wise, or at least no worse than it is outside.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]

leggomylibro 7y ago

I can empathize with these people. It feels like a form of Stockholm's syndrome, where we're starting to come to grips with the idea that we will never escape an economic situation that I can only describe as tap-dancing on quicksand. If we can never achieve a stable life anyways, why bother seeking one? And if tomorrow is probably going to be harder than today, why put off the things that people used to put on their bucket lists?

wallace_f 7y ago
It doesn't have to be a bad thing. My ex-girlfriend and I spent over a year in Australia, most of which was circumnavigating the country in the campervan I built. It was amazing, I would without a doubt do that kind of thing my whole life if I could be a 20 y/o until the day I died. We only spent about 500 usd/pp/month and were really comfortable. We had most of what we wanted and ate well. Learn how to cook, don't buy junk food and the best things, like surfing, are free. I made money on the van since I did all building and repairs myself. Doesn't lend much gravitas, but it was a good life and I hope to build another campervan to use in the future. I'm quite scared of this in America though with our culture, crime, and police. I can also believe it is certainly not for everyone.
- timmaah 7y ago
  > I'm quite scared of this in America Don't be. I've done it for 7 years and counting. Have met awesome people and never hassled or bad interactions.
  - tunap 7y ago
    Yep I've been rambling about 23 months now. Savings went from - balance to 5 digits not blowing it on rent. No problems, whatsoever. The key ia to not loiter in one place too long, don't leave a mess(cleaning up helps, alot) & be courteous to randoms & LEOs. It would be a reduced SoL to rent again, IMO. *I do have a job that requires travel(paid), so I drive across multiple states or fly out of the closest airport qhen required. When I'm not working, I want to be out hiking/paddling/skiing, anyway.

lazyeye 7y ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/vandwellers https://www.reddit.com/r/vandwellers

Hnrobert42 7y ago

I pulled the ripcord, sold my house, and moved to SE Asia in 2015. My biggest expenses by far were flights back to the US to pick up meds not available in asia, said meds, and Western insurance that would cover me abroad (which means non-ACA, thus no med/pre-existing coverage). By 2017 I needed a job as much for the money as for sanity. Now I have a fully remote one. I still hop back and forth between VN and the US. I keep thinking I should pick a place and settle down, but I think in doing so I would feel suffocated. When I feel stress about the pollution and corruption in VN, I comfort myself with the thought that Americans have done enough “good” in VN, and I should leave it be. When I feel stress about Trump’s judicial appointments or our fractured culture, I think, “Welp, I’ll be leaving soon. So long and thanks for all the cheese.” (In Asia, I do miss good cheese.) I worry that this detachment will isolate me over time. I work hard to stay in touch with friends. I often reroute to cities to which my friends have themselves scattered. My expenses, aside from flights and meds, plummeted. When everything must fit in your suitcase, a purchase must be evaluated in terms of what similarly-sized item you can lose. Only in the past few months did I finally take a one year lease in Saigon. It is cheaper than 5 months of short-term rental. It is nice to finally be able to buy a desk and a proper monitor. But I hurt a little giving up the satisfaction, maybe sense of superiority, in being self-contained. I don’t know what is next for me. Maybe that is what I like about my lifestyle. But I take comfort in knowing that I have come by it honestly.

inawarminister 7y ago
Have you learned Vietnamese language? Do you have local friends? Any interest or activities you like that's transcultural - like gearheads, hiking, cooking, arts? Just curious.
- Hnrobert42 7y ago
  I learned Vietnamese well enough to have basic conversations about who I am and what I am doing in Vietnam. I had to study 20 hrs/wk for 3 months, though. Learning VN made learning Spanish seem preposterously easy. I do have local friends. Some through dates that turned into friends. Some through a running group. In general, I found it hard to make VN friends, though I think that is more about my introversion than anything.

heyiforgotmypwd 7y ago

AMA: I've lived in cars and now a VW for almost a decade. (Disclaimer: The nick is an ironic attempt at humor, not trolling.)

an_ko 7y ago
It's expect many people to have these questions: Why did you start? Why have you continued? What's your current setup? Are you happy with it? What's your routine? Where do you shower, use the toilet, and do laundry? What part of the world are you in? Any legal/climate/social challenges?
- heyiforgotmypwd 7y ago
  FAQ: 1. Saving money then and now. It's paid for itself every year, even with maintenance. In general, I'd rather be considerably poorer than a stressed, servile servant to the 1%. My motto is: it's easier to not spend a dollar that it is to make it. 2. Early water-cooled VW Vanagon / Type 2 (T3) Westfalia. It's currently having a no out-of-pocket warranty engine swap. Also, it will need some bodywork and a paint job at some point, but it's alright otherwise. Doing over again with a larger budget, I would get a GMC Savannah or an early 90's Westfalia just before the move to the Eurovan, and one that has a GoWesty 2.3L motor and EMS. In general, I maybe biased, but a compact van has been more stealthy, convenient and practical than monstrous RV's I see all about. 3a. Shower: Gym and I also have lots of Dr Bronners. 3b. Toilet: Gyms or whatever is open nearby. For rare real emergencies, also carry biobags and empty bottles that can be disposed-of in trash. I think the improper disposal of biowaste is one of the greatest sources of community conflict because people with under-treated mental illnesses or lacking personal hygiene are rarely/never proactively assigned social workers to potty train them / make biowaste disposal bags available to prevent gross situations. (perhaps it's viewed like drug needle exchange programs "any help enables") 3c. Laundry: Coin-op laundry. I haven't been very far from civilization in a while, so haven't had to use a bucket and clothesline in a long time. 4a. Silicon Valley. 4b: Legal: There were prohibitions in the past and still exist in many areas, but not in the locations I'm usually at. The Ninth Circuit ruled regarding California, and the majority of cities don't want to risk big lawsuits by harassing people because there are many pro-bono lawyers helping vehicle dwellers/homeless maintain their rights and dignity. Instead, they're pushing mostly poor people as a group, in subtle ways, further to the margins and further into desperation by passing ordinances based on vehicle height, parking time-of-day and requiring parking permits. 4c: Climate: Summer: It gets hot inside for a couple of months, so it's good to find shaded or garage parking. Winter: It's relatively mild weather here, but I have a -40 sleeping bag if it gets too cold. I suggest anyone with electronics they'd like to keep working sleep with them to prevent condensation corrosion and Li-ion low capacity issues. 4d: Social: No one wants an old, fugly, ADD on the spectrum. Trust me. Invisibility is best. 4e: Deliveries: It's a pain when a vendor wants to deliver to a physical address (think food, large mail items or prescriptions). There are workarounds.

RileyJames 7y ago

I’ve been doing van life for about 15 months across CA & US. Being thrifty, with plenty of savings, it’s an easy life. But I’ve met lots of people along the road trying to live and work in a van. Most recently in New York (Williamsburg). Some are doing well, it’s a choice. Others have nearly been forced into it due to some unlucky financial situations. And I fear for them, they’re one more financial upset from homelessness. And apparently we’re in a booming economy.

krapp 7y ago

I can understand the nomadic life as an economic necessity, but I'm kind of disgusted at rich, entitled hipsters playing homeless for the romance of the Bohemian lifestyle. Especially in a country that lines their public spaces with spikes and guillotines[0,1] to drive the actual homeless out of sight and out of mind. [0]https://www.kqed.org/arts/13861966/barts-fare-evasion-crackdown-exposes-the-deadly-elegance-of-hostile-design https://www.kqed.org/arts/13861966/barts-fare-evasion-crackd... [1]https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kzm53n/photos-of-the-most-egregious-anti-homeless-architecture https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kzm53n/photos-of-the-most...

draw_down 7y ago
But this is just a pose, this attitude does not save anyone from homelessness or help anything.