6 ms·

On Android, you do have the freedom to install whatever app you want without having to root. You can also install alternative app stores.

pnw_hazor 7y ago
You do have to fight through some dark patterns that discourage side-loading. But at least you can do it on Android. Also, it is getting harder to avoid using Google Play Services in your apps since they are putting more Android features behind that iron curtain as well.
- archi42 7y ago
  There are multiple problems here: 1. As you stated, Google forces devs to rely on presence of the Google Play Services 2. Devs don't care: I don't see why e.g. Discord should not run properly on MicroG (I get push messages after logging in, but the app itself shows all friends as offline, no servers and a "can not connect to discord" message; from what I found online, it doesn't seem to be intermittent). 3. I wouldn't even know which 3rd party app store to use (okay, besides F-Droid for FOSS and some Google Play Store Proxy)
  - panpanna 7y ago
    > 1. As you stated, Google forces devs to rely on presence of the Google Play Services Not forcing per se. Google just provides a convenient services that devs are happy to use.
    - Macha 7y ago
      That time has passed. There's functionality on Android that can only be reliably provided through play services these days (push notifications being the big one).
      - panpanna 7y ago
        You are correct, but how many applications need push notifications?
        archi42 7y ago
        If you've an android phone, just count your apps? I did, and expected 8 of my 20 apps to use GCM. MicroG revealed it to be 11 (actually 12 due to "MicroG services core" registering with GCM as well). I might be an outlier though.
      - fulafel 7y ago
        It's just an optimization/convenience to use Google services for push notifications, no?
        cameronbrown 7y ago
        Basically: Back in the day a ton of apps used their own notification servers, with each one clashing, waking the device up, etc.. Google Cloud Messaging was then set to be the only service that could wake the device up when it was sleeping. Supposedly it batches messages and sends them at optimal times to save battery.
        fulafel 7y ago
        I'm not convinced that other network io is blocked. There seem to even be commercial competition for GCM: https://pushy.me/ https://pushy.me/
        cameronbrown 7y ago
        It's not when the device is awake or has a wakelock. But since Android's Doze (basically deep sleep battery saving state) GCM is the only service that can wake it up.
        7y ago
    - realusername 7y ago
      That's not true anymore, for notifications it's now mandatory.
  - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
    3. uptodown
    - archi42 7y ago
      DuckDuckGo/Googling for that yields only the site, no review or some 3rd party information if it is safe to use. I mean, as a side-project, I could setup a website that pulls APKs from Google, infests [some] of them with a virus and puts them on a fancy looking website or "alternative app store"-app.
- aviraldg 7y ago
  What you call dark patterns are ways to ensure users don't accidentally load malware onto their device. They can definitely do better though - I think a good first step would a dialog to choose trusted alternative app stores such that installing apps does not require a separate confirmation step (as is currently the case.) The Google Play Services moves are unfortunate, but required. Most device manufacturers do not provide updates for Android on time, so any code that is part of Android itself becomes harder to update.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    "Most device manufacturers do not provide updates for Android on time" Only because Google lets the device manufacturers off the hook. It's a problem of Googles own invention. Trading away customer security for market share. Adding: very successfully too, this isn't the first time I hear how you should almost feel sorry for Google that they have to put so much into google services instead of Android, all because of the evil device manufacturers! Nothing can be done no... wrings hands Maybe it will change a little but now that Huawei happened.
    - janoc 7y ago
      True. And about as helpful as offering a coat to a dead man. It is not a problem that is retroactively fixable by other means than by what they are doing now. They could take Android closed source and put a restrictive license on it demanding that timely updates as a condition of use. All that would achieve is that the large vendors will either stick with the old, still free to use, Android or start working on their own systems they would control again - Samsung's Tizen, Huawei is developing their own, etc. It doesn't take much to piss a large vendor like Samsung off sufficiently to jump ship. They aren't married to Android and have plenty of resources to pour into proprietary alternatives. Google doesn't have much leverage there. The result would be only a market fragmentation, collapse of the app market and loss of market share for Google. That would benefit exactly nobody. Phone vendors are not interested in system updates - that's a pure cost they don't want to pay, they would rather have you buy a new phone or at least not have to spend money and engineering time on preparing patches.
- slac 7y ago
  The Play store is not available in China and there is a thriving app ecosystem there.

pnw_hazor 7y ago

You do have to fight through some dark patterns that discourage side-loading. But at least you can do it on Android. Also, it is getting harder to avoid using Google Play Services in your apps since they are putting more Android features behind that iron curtain as well.

archi42 7y ago
There are multiple problems here: 1. As you stated, Google forces devs to rely on presence of the Google Play Services 2. Devs don't care: I don't see why e.g. Discord should not run properly on MicroG (I get push messages after logging in, but the app itself shows all friends as offline, no servers and a "can not connect to discord" message; from what I found online, it doesn't seem to be intermittent). 3. I wouldn't even know which 3rd party app store to use (okay, besides F-Droid for FOSS and some Google Play Store Proxy)
- panpanna 7y ago
  > 1. As you stated, Google forces devs to rely on presence of the Google Play Services Not forcing per se. Google just provides a convenient services that devs are happy to use.
  - Macha 7y ago
    That time has passed. There's functionality on Android that can only be reliably provided through play services these days (push notifications being the big one).
    - panpanna 7y ago
      You are correct, but how many applications need push notifications?
      - archi42 7y ago
        If you've an android phone, just count your apps? I did, and expected 8 of my 20 apps to use GCM. MicroG revealed it to be 11 (actually 12 due to "MicroG services core" registering with GCM as well). I might be an outlier though.
    - fulafel 7y ago
      It's just an optimization/convenience to use Google services for push notifications, no?
      - cameronbrown 7y ago
        Basically: Back in the day a ton of apps used their own notification servers, with each one clashing, waking the device up, etc.. Google Cloud Messaging was then set to be the only service that could wake the device up when it was sleeping. Supposedly it batches messages and sends them at optimal times to save battery.
        fulafel 7y ago
        I'm not convinced that other network io is blocked. There seem to even be commercial competition for GCM: https://pushy.me/ https://pushy.me/
        cameronbrown 7y ago
        It's not when the device is awake or has a wakelock. But since Android's Doze (basically deep sleep battery saving state) GCM is the only service that can wake it up.
        7y ago
  - realusername 7y ago
    That's not true anymore, for notifications it's now mandatory.
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  3. uptodown
  - archi42 7y ago
    DuckDuckGo/Googling for that yields only the site, no review or some 3rd party information if it is safe to use. I mean, as a side-project, I could setup a website that pulls APKs from Google, infests [some] of them with a virus and puts them on a fancy looking website or "alternative app store"-app.
aviraldg 7y ago
What you call dark patterns are ways to ensure users don't accidentally load malware onto their device. They can definitely do better though - I think a good first step would a dialog to choose trusted alternative app stores such that installing apps does not require a separate confirmation step (as is currently the case.) The Google Play Services moves are unfortunate, but required. Most device manufacturers do not provide updates for Android on time, so any code that is part of Android itself becomes harder to update.
- jacobush 7y ago
  "Most device manufacturers do not provide updates for Android on time" Only because Google lets the device manufacturers off the hook. It's a problem of Googles own invention. Trading away customer security for market share. Adding: very successfully too, this isn't the first time I hear how you should almost feel sorry for Google that they have to put so much into google services instead of Android, all because of the evil device manufacturers! Nothing can be done no... wrings hands Maybe it will change a little but now that Huawei happened.
  - janoc 7y ago
    True. And about as helpful as offering a coat to a dead man. It is not a problem that is retroactively fixable by other means than by what they are doing now. They could take Android closed source and put a restrictive license on it demanding that timely updates as a condition of use. All that would achieve is that the large vendors will either stick with the old, still free to use, Android or start working on their own systems they would control again - Samsung's Tizen, Huawei is developing their own, etc. It doesn't take much to piss a large vendor like Samsung off sufficiently to jump ship. They aren't married to Android and have plenty of resources to pour into proprietary alternatives. Google doesn't have much leverage there. The result would be only a market fragmentation, collapse of the app market and loss of market share for Google. That would benefit exactly nobody. Phone vendors are not interested in system updates - that's a pure cost they don't want to pay, they would rather have you buy a new phone or at least not have to spend money and engineering time on preparing patches.
slac 7y ago
The Play store is not available in China and there is a thriving app ecosystem there.