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U.S. teenager tortured in Kuwait and barred re-entry into the U.S.

47 points by yeahsure 16y ago

CWIZO 16y ago
Warning: the page opens a video ad that starts to play automatically. I nearly shat my pants, since I opened it in the background :)
- nopassrecover 16y ago
  AdBlock Plus
  - srean 16y ago
    If you care for a different cure, then noscript. The developers of each had a spat in recent times though.
    - nopassrecover 16y ago
      Wow I wasn't aware, but after reading this post: http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users I'm honestly concerned about using NoScript any longer. //Edit: http://hackademix.net/2009/05/04/dear-adblock-plus-and-noscript-users-dear-mozilla-community/ http://hackademix.net/2009/05/04/dear-adblock-plus-and-noscr... The reply by NoScript was excellent. I feel reassured.
- Samuel_Michon 16y ago
  Uninstalling Flash makes for a pleasant and serene browsing experience. Highly recommended.
myfoolishpride 16y ago
A very sad story. I find it interesting that Bush is still brought up without noting that the policy of rendition started under Clinton and was largely replaced under Bush with Gitmo. Also, calling Kuwait a puppet of the U.S. is a vast over simplification of the situation. Though, the FBI agent and other officials who visited this young man should be severely disciplined if they showed the disregard that is alleged here.
srean 16y ago
Shocking! But my comment is about something else: the different presentation style used by NYT and Salon. The chances that I would have skipped over the NYT article is much higher than I would have the Salon article. A picture makes a lot of difference, so does "U.S. Teenager" versus "Detained American", and of course "torture" versus "beaten".
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  I think "torture" may be a little extreme. Are threats, beatings & lashings to the feet & hands considered torture? I mean, definitely not desirable or anything, but I always understood torture to refer to the much more extreme. Otherwise we conclude schoolyard bullies, police, and schoolteachers regularly engage in torture, though schoolteachers have mostly ceased using canes for lashing.
  - srean 16y ago
    Prolonged beating of the soles of the feet, or phalanga as it is sometimes called, is definitely torture. It has a rich history. It is extremely painful, primarily because of the abundance of nerve endings in the sole of ones feet. It takes a long time to heal so the punishment effectively gets extended over a long period of time, possibly permanent. Conveniently enough it leaves almost no evidence. Edit:A study on the effects of phalanga http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_4_CVER1g5YJ:www.irct.org/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File%3D%252FFiles%252FFiler%252FTortureJournal%252F19_01_2009%252FLong-term_consequences.pdf http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_4_CVER...
    - srean 16y ago
      Too late to edit, but meant "possibly permanently".
    - yeahsure 16y ago
      A friend of mine was in an orphanage in MX when he was a child. He suffered from extended beatings on his soles (among other things like cigarette burns and the like). I don't know if it's true, but he says he can't feel absolutely nothing with his soles (ie No pain). So yes, this is definitely torture, with permanent consequences.
marze 16y ago
Very sad. Just a practical question, if someone is on the "no fly" list, does that prevent them from flying in all countries? One would think not, so why wouldn't that person be able to fly to Mexico then present their passport at the border for reentry into the US?
- yardie 16y ago
  You would think it works the way it is written but there have been a few instances of flights being diverted even though they would never fly through US airspace. And don't even think about flying to Canada, they are in lockstep with the US as far as the no fly list is concerned. For example, last year a flight from London to Mexico City was turned back because a US citizen on the no fly list was onboard. Plane landed back in London, the passenger was asked to leave, no argument, and the flight resumed eight hours later. No one has been able to find out who he was and what happened to him; arrested, cleared immigration, deported (where?).
ScottWhigham 16y ago
Sad tale, of course, but why is this front page news on HackerNews?
- iwwr 16y ago
  When just the act traveling to a certain country makes you a target for torture and imprisonment by your own government, it would make one uncomfortable, particularly as a person who would like to travel.
- tomh- 16y ago
  Unfortunately, if a small portion of HN'ers find this story worth upvoting, it will hit the frontpage, even though it is a very political article with no relevance to hackers, technology or startups nor does it affect life of the typical HN audience. As HN becomes more mainstream, expect more mainstream articles.
mrr2 16y ago
As a Somali, this person's life is likely absolute hell in Kuwaiti prison. The Middle Eastern countries are incredibly prejudiced against people of Indian Subcontinental and African origins as many come to the peninsula in order to work on construction/menial jobs. Family friends (I am of Indian origin) have horror stories of passports being confiscated, police blackmails, and blatant racism. Its truly sad that the U.S. has let a citizen be treated like this by a state, especially a state where the U.S. has as much influence.
iwwr 16y ago
For every story like this, there are countless that never get told, though people in the Arab world are keenly aware of them.
TeMPOraL 16y ago
Isn't it true that an american citizen can not be banned from entering his country and isn't that a constitutional law? I'm not from US, but I remember a small media mess around a case, when TSA didn't want to let an american citizen out of the airport (was mentioned on HN).
- chrisbennet 16y ago
  Sadly, our US consitutional rights are have been severly abridged by the State "in order to keep us safe". Rather than admit we are sliding into some sort of police state, we try to rationalize that only the "bad" people are treated unconsitutionally. While a few brave souls stand up for their rights, the majority are too afraid to. We submit to warrantless searches every time we fly (even if we know it's pure ineffective security theater) lest we miss our flight.
  - TeMPOraL 16y ago
    Thanks for your answer :). But still, I'd like to know if it is a constitutional right or if I misread it somewhere? BTW. I heard a joke about current flight security policies in general (ie. not specific to any country) that "you can board the plane with a fish in a bowl, as long as you dispose of water before entering" ;).
    - drinian 16y ago
      (Disclaimer; I am not a lawyer, but I have studied the history of Constitutional rights). As far as I know, there's no specific right to international travel in the US Constitution, but the law and the courts have generally held that withholding a citizen's ability to enter and exit the country should not be used punitively.[0] That being said, the First Amendment specifically protects citizens' ability to petition the government for redress of grievances, as well as publicly assemble.[1] I know that people have attempted to use that to establish a definitive right to travel, as in Gilmore v. Gonzales [2]. I don't know whether they've had any success. It's interesting that the Wikipedia page on citizens' rights doesn't have any sources for their claim that all US citizens have the right to re-enter the country [3]. However, I imagine that to deny someone right to entry would also deny them their right to due process, specifically guaranteed under the Fifth Amendment [4]. Heck, usually the government pro-actively tries to extradite criminals back to the US... [0] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Freedom_of_mo... [1] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/First_Amendme... [2] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Gilmore_v._Gonzales https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Gilmore_v._Go... [3] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Citizenship_in_the_United_States#Rights https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Citizenship_i... [4] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fifth_Amendme...
joeycfan 16y ago
See, if this kid didn't hate America before, he does NOW, right? America is degenerating into a stupid, vicious country (and I say that with regret, because I love it).

47 points by yeahsure 16y ago

CWIZO 16y ago

Warning: the page opens a video ad that starts to play automatically. I nearly shat my pants, since I opened it in the background :)

nopassrecover 16y ago
AdBlock Plus
- srean 16y ago
  If you care for a different cure, then noscript. The developers of each had a spat in recent times though.
  - nopassrecover 16y ago
    Wow I wasn't aware, but after reading this post: http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users http://adblockplus.org/blog/attention-noscript-users I'm honestly concerned about using NoScript any longer. //Edit: http://hackademix.net/2009/05/04/dear-adblock-plus-and-noscript-users-dear-mozilla-community/ http://hackademix.net/2009/05/04/dear-adblock-plus-and-noscr... The reply by NoScript was excellent. I feel reassured.
Samuel_Michon 16y ago
Uninstalling Flash makes for a pleasant and serene browsing experience. Highly recommended.

myfoolishpride 16y ago

A very sad story. I find it interesting that Bush is still brought up without noting that the policy of rendition started under Clinton and was largely replaced under Bush with Gitmo. Also, calling Kuwait a puppet of the U.S. is a vast over simplification of the situation. Though, the FBI agent and other officials who visited this young man should be severely disciplined if they showed the disregard that is alleged here.

srean 16y ago

Shocking! But my comment is about something else: the different presentation style used by NYT and Salon. The chances that I would have skipped over the NYT article is much higher than I would have the Salon article. A picture makes a lot of difference, so does "U.S. Teenager" versus "Detained American", and of course "torture" versus "beaten".

sliverstorm 16y ago
I think "torture" may be a little extreme. Are threats, beatings & lashings to the feet & hands considered torture? I mean, definitely not desirable or anything, but I always understood torture to refer to the much more extreme. Otherwise we conclude schoolyard bullies, police, and schoolteachers regularly engage in torture, though schoolteachers have mostly ceased using canes for lashing.
- srean 16y ago
  Prolonged beating of the soles of the feet, or phalanga as it is sometimes called, is definitely torture. It has a rich history. It is extremely painful, primarily because of the abundance of nerve endings in the sole of ones feet. It takes a long time to heal so the punishment effectively gets extended over a long period of time, possibly permanent. Conveniently enough it leaves almost no evidence. Edit:A study on the effects of phalanga http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_4_CVER1g5YJ:www.irct.org/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File%3D%252FFiles%252FFiler%252FTortureJournal%252F19_01_2009%252FLong-term_consequences.pdf http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_4_CVER...
  - srean 16y ago
    Too late to edit, but meant "possibly permanently".
  - yeahsure 16y ago
    A friend of mine was in an orphanage in MX when he was a child. He suffered from extended beatings on his soles (among other things like cigarette burns and the like). I don't know if it's true, but he says he can't feel absolutely nothing with his soles (ie No pain). So yes, this is definitely torture, with permanent consequences.

marze 16y ago

Very sad. Just a practical question, if someone is on the "no fly" list, does that prevent them from flying in all countries? One would think not, so why wouldn't that person be able to fly to Mexico then present their passport at the border for reentry into the US?

yardie 16y ago
You would think it works the way it is written but there have been a few instances of flights being diverted even though they would never fly through US airspace. And don't even think about flying to Canada, they are in lockstep with the US as far as the no fly list is concerned. For example, last year a flight from London to Mexico City was turned back because a US citizen on the no fly list was onboard. Plane landed back in London, the passenger was asked to leave, no argument, and the flight resumed eight hours later. No one has been able to find out who he was and what happened to him; arrested, cleared immigration, deported (where?).

ScottWhigham 16y ago

Sad tale, of course, but why is this front page news on HackerNews?

iwwr 16y ago
When just the act traveling to a certain country makes you a target for torture and imprisonment by your own government, it would make one uncomfortable, particularly as a person who would like to travel.
tomh- 16y ago
Unfortunately, if a small portion of HN'ers find this story worth upvoting, it will hit the frontpage, even though it is a very political article with no relevance to hackers, technology or startups nor does it affect life of the typical HN audience. As HN becomes more mainstream, expect more mainstream articles.

mrr2 16y ago

As a Somali, this person's life is likely absolute hell in Kuwaiti prison. The Middle Eastern countries are incredibly prejudiced against people of Indian Subcontinental and African origins as many come to the peninsula in order to work on construction/menial jobs. Family friends (I am of Indian origin) have horror stories of passports being confiscated, police blackmails, and blatant racism. Its truly sad that the U.S. has let a citizen be treated like this by a state, especially a state where the U.S. has as much influence.

iwwr 16y ago

For every story like this, there are countless that never get told, though people in the Arab world are keenly aware of them.

TeMPOraL 16y ago

Isn't it true that an american citizen can not be banned from entering his country and isn't that a constitutional law? I'm not from US, but I remember a small media mess around a case, when TSA didn't want to let an american citizen out of the airport (was mentioned on HN).

chrisbennet 16y ago
Sadly, our US consitutional rights are have been severly abridged by the State "in order to keep us safe". Rather than admit we are sliding into some sort of police state, we try to rationalize that only the "bad" people are treated unconsitutionally. While a few brave souls stand up for their rights, the majority are too afraid to. We submit to warrantless searches every time we fly (even if we know it's pure ineffective security theater) lest we miss our flight.
- TeMPOraL 16y ago
  Thanks for your answer :). But still, I'd like to know if it is a constitutional right or if I misread it somewhere? BTW. I heard a joke about current flight security policies in general (ie. not specific to any country) that "you can board the plane with a fish in a bowl, as long as you dispose of water before entering" ;).
  - drinian 16y ago
    (Disclaimer; I am not a lawyer, but I have studied the history of Constitutional rights). As far as I know, there's no specific right to international travel in the US Constitution, but the law and the courts have generally held that withholding a citizen's ability to enter and exit the country should not be used punitively.[0] That being said, the First Amendment specifically protects citizens' ability to petition the government for redress of grievances, as well as publicly assemble.[1] I know that people have attempted to use that to establish a definitive right to travel, as in Gilmore v. Gonzales [2]. I don't know whether they've had any success. It's interesting that the Wikipedia page on citizens' rights doesn't have any sources for their claim that all US citizens have the right to re-enter the country [3]. However, I imagine that to deny someone right to entry would also deny them their right to due process, specifically guaranteed under the Fifth Amendment [4]. Heck, usually the government pro-actively tries to extradite criminals back to the US... [0] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Freedom_of_mo... [1] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/First_Amendme... [2] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Gilmore_v._Gonzales https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Gilmore_v._Go... [3] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Citizenship_in_the_United_States#Rights https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Citizenship_i... [4] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fifth_Amendme...

joeycfan 16y ago

See, if this kid didn't hate America before, he does NOW, right? America is degenerating into a stupid, vicious country (and I say that with regret, because I love it).