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I didn't say it was a massive success - but it still did pretty darn well against the x86 juggernaut; and now it's doing something that juggernaut can never do,

I didn't say it was a massive success - but it still did pretty darn well against the x86 juggernaut; and now it's doing something that juggernaut can never do, going open. This will enable so many application tailored designs that IBM itself could never do viably. We'll see how things go - I don't make predictions, but I do have hope for a more open, more hacker friendly future.

Aloha 7y ago
Beyond that, IBM uses it for several of their mainframe products too.
- StillBored 7y ago
  This is false, the zXX microprocessors are custom cores that natively run the z/Architecture ISA. Even a trivial comparison will show they are different and not just a microcode layer running on a POWER processor. There is probably some level of sharing (say a high perf divide unit or whatever) but that doesn't make them the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z14_(microprocessor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z14_(microprocessor) Edit, Adding some microarch descriptions links below: https://www.anandtech.com/show/11750/hot-chips-ibms-next-generation-z14-cpu-mainframe-live-blog-5pm-pt-12am-utc https://www.anandtech.com/show/11750/hot-chips-ibms-next-gen... https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/ibm/microarchitectures/power9 https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/ibm/microarchitectures/power9
  - justinjlynn 7y ago
    They are custom cores, but they likely do share at least some RTL - we won't know, of course, unless IBM decide to share those details and I doubt they would.
  - lboc 7y ago
    ISTR reading somewhere they're used in the I/O hardware (OSA etc)?
    - StillBored 7y ago
      Yah, there are embedded power processors scattered all over IBM's hardware lines. The z tape controller a couple years ago was just a rack mount POWER server. OTOH, so is x86, the z's HMC, PE's etc are just x86 laptops/servers. But thats like calling an x86 server an ARM because there are ARM's in the disk controllers, and on the motherboard acting as BMC's/etc.
      - lboc 7y ago
        Agreed. I just read "...uses it..." to include things other than the main processors. (edit: misquote)
      - rbanffy 7y ago
        And mainframes rely on them extensively. Pretty much everything that can be delegated is, leaving the z cores running as little code as possible.
  - protomyth 7y ago
    Their other mainframe product the iSeries is POWER-based. We just bought a new one and it has a POWER 9 CPU.
    - StillBored 7y ago
      iseries is not a mainframe (and you will never hear an IBMer make that mistake). That's whats traditionally called a minicomputer. Sure they make some big ones, but people don't go around calling a superdome flex a mainframe either despite it being a massive machine (something like 1k cores and 48TB of ram in its max config). Its just a fancy x86.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
StillBored 7y ago
something that (x86) juggernaut can never do, going open Why do you think that? Sure there is some level of cross license/etc, but x86's have been designed/built by a number of 3rd party companies (IDT, rise, cyrix, transmeta, etc) in the past, and basic versions that skip over the currently IP protected bits could probably be done again. x86-64 is nearly 20 years old at this point so patents there will start to expire soon.
- justinjlynn 7y ago
  You're right. I shouldn't say never. It might, one day, be able to do it - and I hope it does; but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting. The fact that no unified entity owns x86 or it's multitudinous extensions makes going open almost impossible - so, so many independent interests and conflicting businesses would need to align.

Aloha 7y ago

Beyond that, IBM uses it for several of their mainframe products too.

StillBored 7y ago
This is false, the zXX microprocessors are custom cores that natively run the z/Architecture ISA. Even a trivial comparison will show they are different and not just a microcode layer running on a POWER processor. There is probably some level of sharing (say a high perf divide unit or whatever) but that doesn't make them the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z14_(microprocessor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_z14_(microprocessor) Edit, Adding some microarch descriptions links below: https://www.anandtech.com/show/11750/hot-chips-ibms-next-generation-z14-cpu-mainframe-live-blog-5pm-pt-12am-utc https://www.anandtech.com/show/11750/hot-chips-ibms-next-gen... https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/ibm/microarchitectures/power9 https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/ibm/microarchitectures/power9
- justinjlynn 7y ago
  They are custom cores, but they likely do share at least some RTL - we won't know, of course, unless IBM decide to share those details and I doubt they would.
- lboc 7y ago
  ISTR reading somewhere they're used in the I/O hardware (OSA etc)?
  - StillBored 7y ago
    Yah, there are embedded power processors scattered all over IBM's hardware lines. The z tape controller a couple years ago was just a rack mount POWER server. OTOH, so is x86, the z's HMC, PE's etc are just x86 laptops/servers. But thats like calling an x86 server an ARM because there are ARM's in the disk controllers, and on the motherboard acting as BMC's/etc.
    - lboc 7y ago
      Agreed. I just read "...uses it..." to include things other than the main processors. (edit: misquote)
    - rbanffy 7y ago
      And mainframes rely on them extensively. Pretty much everything that can be delegated is, leaving the z cores running as little code as possible.
- protomyth 7y ago
  Their other mainframe product the iSeries is POWER-based. We just bought a new one and it has a POWER 9 CPU.
  - StillBored 7y ago
    iseries is not a mainframe (and you will never hear an IBMer make that mistake). That's whats traditionally called a minicomputer. Sure they make some big ones, but people don't go around calling a superdome flex a mainframe either despite it being a massive machine (something like 1k cores and 48TB of ram in its max config). Its just a fancy x86.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

StillBored 7y ago

something that (x86) juggernaut can never do, going open Why do you think that? Sure there is some level of cross license/etc, but x86's have been designed/built by a number of 3rd party companies (IDT, rise, cyrix, transmeta, etc) in the past, and basic versions that skip over the currently IP protected bits could probably be done again. x86-64 is nearly 20 years old at this point so patents there will start to expire soon.

justinjlynn 7y ago
You're right. I shouldn't say never. It might, one day, be able to do it - and I hope it does; but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting. The fact that no unified entity owns x86 or it's multitudinous extensions makes going open almost impossible - so, so many independent interests and conflicting businesses would need to align.