4 ms·

> Why not let Hong Konger’s vote for independence? Probably the same reason Spain doesn’t let Catalonia vote for independence.

sooheon 7y ago
Or why America literally fought a war over secession.
- _iyig 7y ago
  Does Hong Kong practice chattel slavery? That was the reason for the American Civil War.
tony 7y ago
I'm not an expert on Catolonia and Spain, but I don't see it that way. I've likened Hong Kong to Singapore. It's leaning toward being fully independent and the momentum seems unstoppable. The question I'm wondering is why stop at HK? I want my access to KuGou back. That's what did it for me. Spain and Catalonia both use the Euro. Catalonia has its own judicial system, but I believe they both are set to the EU in terms of bigger picture things. HK and PRC have separate currencies. HK uses traditional chinese characters and speaks Cantonese. Not everyone in neighboring Guangdong speaks Cantonese, and they use simplified chinese characters. Hong Kong has its own famous movies. It has its own cellphone companies and ISPs. Its own stock market. They drive on different sides of the road (left in HK, right in China). HK has trams. HK has its own customs. The legal system is in english and its a common law system and dramatically different than China's.
- ridaj 7y ago
  What momentum towards independence? Everything since the handover has been going against independence. Maybe the difference with Singapore is this cold reality: https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/21/hong-kongs-inconvenient-truth/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/21/hong-kongs-inconvenient...
  - morningseagulls 7y ago
    The article notes: >the city looks to the mainland for most of its resources. So does Singapore, which looks to Peninsular Malaysia for most of its resources (water and food). That's the main problem with that opinion piece. Here's the real difference: - Singapore was expelled from the federation of Malaysia by politicians keen to keep their racialist affirmative action policy. AFAIK Malaysia has no official irredentist policy when it comes to Singapore. - Hong Kong is in no danger of being expelled from the PRC because the PRC has an officially proclaimed irredentist policy regarding Hong Kong.
    - ridaj 7y ago
      Sure, the dependency on resources exists in the case of Singapore as well, but the ratio of military capability between Singapore and Malaysia is much more balanced than that between HK and the PRC (since it's 0).
      - morningseagulls 7y ago
        The relative military capabilities of the two parties, like the resource dependency, is a side issue. Kuala Lumpur shows no sign of wanting Singapore back because Singapore would significantly alter Malaysia's demographics and push for racial equality, which is not what the ruling Malay political class wants. Beijing, however, sees every reason to keep HK. Not just the irredentism: have a look at the map and you will see that HK is on the NE entrance of the Pearl River. HK may not be as economically important as before, but just like Macau on the other side of the mouth of the Pearl River, it is of immense geostrategic importance to the security of the river delta region.
- morningseagulls 7y ago
  >I'm not an expert on Catolonia and Spain Here, let me wiki that for you (lmwtfy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe... >I've likened Hong Kong to Singapore. I love how people pull out Singapore (hey, why doesn't Hong Kong become an independent "authoritarian democracy", like Singapore?) at this point, but the analogy is spurious. The historical and geopolitical situations of these two cities are night and day. I mean, lmwtfy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Singapore Here's the relevant timeline: 1959: Singapore achieved full self-government as a British colony. 1963: In defiance of massive skepticism, Singapore merged with Malaya, Sabah and Sarawak to form the federal constitutional monarchy of Malaysia. 1963-65: Massive protests rocked Singapore because of disaffection with the racialist affirmative action policy of the federal government in Kuala Lumpur. 1965: To avoid further unrest, the federal government of Malaysia decided to expel Singapore from the federation. For your analogy to work, you'd have to substitute "Malaysia" in the above for "China", since Hong Kong depends on China for its food and water, as Singapore does. But the result of that substitution looks nothing like the actual history of Hong Kong. Your analogy also breaks down for the following reasons: - Malaysia does not have an official irredentist position regarding Singapore. The official irredentist position of the PRC is well-known when it comes to Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. - Many Malaysian politicians at the time, including the then ruling party UMNO, were skeptical of Singapore's entry into Malaysia, and were quite relieved to be rid of Singapore. In contrast, the PRC's position is that Hong Kong is an integral part of its territory, come what may. - Malaysia does not have any troops garrisoned in Singapore. There are PLA troops garrisoned in Hong Kong. >Spain and Catalonia both use the Euro. Catalonia has its own judicial system, but I believe they both are set to the EU in terms of bigger picture things. The EU, as a community of sovereign nations, is wary of being seen as supporting separatism within its member nations. This is one of the reasons why it let Spain do what it did to Catalonia. >HK [...] These are superficial differences. Power is power, as some have said. No matter how much you and others would like to liken Hong Kong to Singapore, the fact remains that they face vastly different geopolitical realities.
  - tony 7y ago
    I just don't see it that way. Without establishing any ground rules, (what similarities are we talking?) It's hard to do. India, Canada, Pakistan, New Zealand, Australia, USA, Brunei. Former British colonies with bigger historical differences, isn't the final destination sovereignty? Wouldn't Singapore be more analogous to HK than them though? For instance I never considered that Singapore broke away from Malaysia after Britain left. Extradition bill in HK with support from the capital. Affirmative action policy in SG being imposed by the capital. Those kind of play toward the concept of a proud city-state breaking apart of a larger, country that doesn't seem to grasp what the people are feeling. It reminds me of an unattuned parent trying to force their child behave a certain way when they're already stressed out by something else. If it goes too far, it creates this spiral and the child suffers, and has to leave the family. Obviously having people who don't care to understand your feelings in charge of your life isn't tenable. What if HK were to decide "enough is enough", to move out, and live their own life? They have a developed economy, their own legal system, health care, and civil servants. They can make their own decision without a power thousands of miles away with a totally different organizational philosophy trying to control them. Aside: If we wanted to contrast HK <-> SG, I'd probably pick different things. For instance Singapore speaking Mandarin and being more diverse culturally/linguistically. It's really cool. Look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Singapore#/media/File:MRT_emergency_plunger_warning_sign.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Singapore#/media/...
deleted 7y ago
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sooheon 7y ago

Or why America literally fought a war over secession.

_iyig 7y ago
Does Hong Kong practice chattel slavery? That was the reason for the American Civil War.

tony 7y ago

I'm not an expert on Catolonia and Spain, but I don't see it that way. I've likened Hong Kong to Singapore. It's leaning toward being fully independent and the momentum seems unstoppable. The question I'm wondering is why stop at HK? I want my access to KuGou back. That's what did it for me. Spain and Catalonia both use the Euro. Catalonia has its own judicial system, but I believe they both are set to the EU in terms of bigger picture things. HK and PRC have separate currencies. HK uses traditional chinese characters and speaks Cantonese. Not everyone in neighboring Guangdong speaks Cantonese, and they use simplified chinese characters. Hong Kong has its own famous movies. It has its own cellphone companies and ISPs. Its own stock market. They drive on different sides of the road (left in HK, right in China). HK has trams. HK has its own customs. The legal system is in english and its a common law system and dramatically different than China's.

ridaj 7y ago
What momentum towards independence? Everything since the handover has been going against independence. Maybe the difference with Singapore is this cold reality: https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/21/hong-kongs-inconvenient-truth/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/21/hong-kongs-inconvenient...
- morningseagulls 7y ago
  The article notes: >the city looks to the mainland for most of its resources. So does Singapore, which looks to Peninsular Malaysia for most of its resources (water and food). That's the main problem with that opinion piece. Here's the real difference: - Singapore was expelled from the federation of Malaysia by politicians keen to keep their racialist affirmative action policy. AFAIK Malaysia has no official irredentist policy when it comes to Singapore. - Hong Kong is in no danger of being expelled from the PRC because the PRC has an officially proclaimed irredentist policy regarding Hong Kong.
  - ridaj 7y ago
    Sure, the dependency on resources exists in the case of Singapore as well, but the ratio of military capability between Singapore and Malaysia is much more balanced than that between HK and the PRC (since it's 0).
    - morningseagulls 7y ago
      The relative military capabilities of the two parties, like the resource dependency, is a side issue. Kuala Lumpur shows no sign of wanting Singapore back because Singapore would significantly alter Malaysia's demographics and push for racial equality, which is not what the ruling Malay political class wants. Beijing, however, sees every reason to keep HK. Not just the irredentism: have a look at the map and you will see that HK is on the NE entrance of the Pearl River. HK may not be as economically important as before, but just like Macau on the other side of the mouth of the Pearl River, it is of immense geostrategic importance to the security of the river delta region.
morningseagulls 7y ago
>I'm not an expert on Catolonia and Spain Here, let me wiki that for you (lmwtfy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe... >I've likened Hong Kong to Singapore. I love how people pull out Singapore (hey, why doesn't Hong Kong become an independent "authoritarian democracy", like Singapore?) at this point, but the analogy is spurious. The historical and geopolitical situations of these two cities are night and day. I mean, lmwtfy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Singapore Here's the relevant timeline: 1959: Singapore achieved full self-government as a British colony. 1963: In defiance of massive skepticism, Singapore merged with Malaya, Sabah and Sarawak to form the federal constitutional monarchy of Malaysia. 1963-65: Massive protests rocked Singapore because of disaffection with the racialist affirmative action policy of the federal government in Kuala Lumpur. 1965: To avoid further unrest, the federal government of Malaysia decided to expel Singapore from the federation. For your analogy to work, you'd have to substitute "Malaysia" in the above for "China", since Hong Kong depends on China for its food and water, as Singapore does. But the result of that substitution looks nothing like the actual history of Hong Kong. Your analogy also breaks down for the following reasons: - Malaysia does not have an official irredentist position regarding Singapore. The official irredentist position of the PRC is well-known when it comes to Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. - Many Malaysian politicians at the time, including the then ruling party UMNO, were skeptical of Singapore's entry into Malaysia, and were quite relieved to be rid of Singapore. In contrast, the PRC's position is that Hong Kong is an integral part of its territory, come what may. - Malaysia does not have any troops garrisoned in Singapore. There are PLA troops garrisoned in Hong Kong. >Spain and Catalonia both use the Euro. Catalonia has its own judicial system, but I believe they both are set to the EU in terms of bigger picture things. The EU, as a community of sovereign nations, is wary of being seen as supporting separatism within its member nations. This is one of the reasons why it let Spain do what it did to Catalonia. >HK [...] These are superficial differences. Power is power, as some have said. No matter how much you and others would like to liken Hong Kong to Singapore, the fact remains that they face vastly different geopolitical realities.
- tony 7y ago
  I just don't see it that way. Without establishing any ground rules, (what similarities are we talking?) It's hard to do. India, Canada, Pakistan, New Zealand, Australia, USA, Brunei. Former British colonies with bigger historical differences, isn't the final destination sovereignty? Wouldn't Singapore be more analogous to HK than them though? For instance I never considered that Singapore broke away from Malaysia after Britain left. Extradition bill in HK with support from the capital. Affirmative action policy in SG being imposed by the capital. Those kind of play toward the concept of a proud city-state breaking apart of a larger, country that doesn't seem to grasp what the people are feeling. It reminds me of an unattuned parent trying to force their child behave a certain way when they're already stressed out by something else. If it goes too far, it creates this spiral and the child suffers, and has to leave the family. Obviously having people who don't care to understand your feelings in charge of your life isn't tenable. What if HK were to decide "enough is enough", to move out, and live their own life? They have a developed economy, their own legal system, health care, and civil servants. They can make their own decision without a power thousands of miles away with a totally different organizational philosophy trying to control them. Aside: If we wanted to contrast HK <-> SG, I'd probably pick different things. For instance Singapore speaking Mandarin and being more diverse culturally/linguistically. It's really cool. Look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Singapore#/media/File:MRT_emergency_plunger_warning_sign.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Singapore#/media/...

deleted 7y ago

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