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Tbh, hk’s destiny was written when it’s handed back to cpc. Cpc is less tolerant of ‘anti-noise’ now. Just hope no more blood from the ordinary.

by hank_z 7y ago

whatshisface 7y ago
If the standard of living of the ordinary in HK drops to the ordinary standard of living in the mainland, ordinary HKers will have a reason to fight.
- iamnotacrook 7y ago
  China is undergoing an economic miracle which is transforming the lives of millions. Hong Kong is going to get consumed by the mainland no matter which Linux distro or whatever is used. There's no domestic desire to keep HK special. It's just not going to happen.
  - lettergram 7y ago
    I’d need to find the Frontline episode I saw on this (which gave numbers). But only around 300 million people are benefiting by moving to the middle class, the 700 million migrant workers and farmers are essentially slaves. That’s how China produces cheaper goods. So sure, “miracle for millions” is kind of true, but also omitting the majority.
    - Leary 7y ago
      https://www.gapminder.org/tools/#$chart-type=mountain https://www.gapminder.org/tools/#$chart-type=mountain Good chart for people interested in exploring the change in income distribution of people in different countries, including China.
    - koduckgraph 7y ago
      Don't know where these figures of 300m and 700m come from, but people below poverty line reduced significantly. No tax is asked from farmers and kids of farmers are free to get higher pay either by either working as migrants in city or become new middle class through education. Overall wellbeing uplift is no doubt but discrepancy in the society increases much more, which is a big problem. Back to HK problem, info access control is a real threat to the freedom of ordinary people, which will ruin the foundation of HK’s prosperity.
      - lettergram 7y ago
        > No tax is asked from farmers and kids of farmers are free to get higher pay either by either working as migrants in city or become new middle class through education Largely because they can't afford education[1], children become migrants. That's largely the group I'm talking about. Apparently, the current numbers stand at ~300 million migrant workers[2] in 2015 (stats I quoted was from 2008), BUT that's largely due to reclassification of the workers to "urban" as opposed to "migrant" class. Which means they can stay in their residence without a job. That does not mean they can afford things like education. Implying there's likely still closer to that ~700 million number who can't break out of poverty. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_in_China
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      This is garbage. Essentially slaves? Health, education, access to consumer goods, percentage urban, all of these have been rising pretty much non stop since the 80's. I live in Shanghai and have for seven years. There are plenty of people here living in less than ideal conditions, like in the apartment on the first floor of my block where people are sleeping six to a room but it beats being a peasant easily. Subsistence farming sucks. Urbanisation is a decent measure of increases in the standard of living here because even the worst city has many more opportunities than the countryside. One of the big convenience store chains here, FamilyMart, the workers have 7 day a week, 15 hour day shifts. I've seen some employees in the same FamilyMart for years. They stay because it's better than what they'd be able to get at home. They work vastly more hours than the middle class do, mostly, but they're earning about the same per week as kindergarten teachers here do, with their degree and much better job, about 8,000 yuan a month. You know what the annual income is in the countryside? 10,000 to 20,000 in Anhui, maybe four hours travel from Shanghai. People work these terrible jobs because they're used to working harder, for less money. Subsistence farming is an awful way to earn a living and people get the hell out as soon as they can, in China now and for the past thirty years just like in the UK during the industrial revolution. People left the countryside to work in the dark satanic mills because the countryside was worse. People choose to work in FamilyMart when there are other convenience store chains with shorter shifts and days off so they can save money so they can do things like buy a house, same as offshore oil rig workers or sailors spend months away from their family. People make choices, in circumstances you or I would never wish on anyone but they're free to make those choices. They're not slaves.
      - throwaway1997 7y ago
        You live in a Tier 1 city. Anhui, your example of the sticks, is mostly Tier 2. You have barely experienced most of China and have lived as an expat and think you can speak for the Chinese people?
- magicsmoke 7y ago
  Right now HK is stagnant and the mainland is rising. With all observations being relative to the observer's inertial frame though, that might feel like HK is falling from HK's perspective.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  LOL how dare you enjoy an equal life! I'm clearly superior and deserve a better life! Yeah go ahead fight for it, I'm sure people in the mainland will support them wholeheartedly. The gap has closed not because HK has became poorer, but because mainland became richer.
  - throwaway1997 7y ago
    Ah so the solution to inequality is to not lift the poor up but to pull the successful down like crabs in a bucket [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
ma2rten 7y ago
I don't think so. The future is unpredictable. History is full of unexpected twists and turns.
- gatoradezero 7y ago
  History is also, "doomed to repeat itself." But I agree with you, it's better to stay open-minded about these things and, if all else, er on the side of optimism. It was just a couple of weeks ago that China was mobilizing troops on the border and people were calling for TSquare 2. If nothing happened then, I don't see why it would now.
ryacko 7y ago
I suspect the British learned from the Irish’s position on the partition of Ireland. A population with an incompatible culture will lead to indefinite struggle.

Tbh, hk’s destiny was written when it’s handed back to cpc. Cpc is less tolerant of ‘anti-noise’ now. Just hope no more blood from the ordinary.

by hank_z 7y ago

Tbh, hk’s destiny was written when it’s handed back to cpc. Cpc is less tolerant of ‘anti-noise’ now. Just hope no more blood from the ordinary.

whatshisface 7y ago

If the standard of living of the ordinary in HK drops to the ordinary standard of living in the mainland, ordinary HKers will have a reason to fight.

iamnotacrook 7y ago
China is undergoing an economic miracle which is transforming the lives of millions. Hong Kong is going to get consumed by the mainland no matter which Linux distro or whatever is used. There's no domestic desire to keep HK special. It's just not going to happen.
- lettergram 7y ago
  I’d need to find the Frontline episode I saw on this (which gave numbers). But only around 300 million people are benefiting by moving to the middle class, the 700 million migrant workers and farmers are essentially slaves. That’s how China produces cheaper goods. So sure, “miracle for millions” is kind of true, but also omitting the majority.
  - Leary 7y ago
    https://www.gapminder.org/tools/#$chart-type=mountain https://www.gapminder.org/tools/#$chart-type=mountain Good chart for people interested in exploring the change in income distribution of people in different countries, including China.
  - koduckgraph 7y ago
    Don't know where these figures of 300m and 700m come from, but people below poverty line reduced significantly. No tax is asked from farmers and kids of farmers are free to get higher pay either by either working as migrants in city or become new middle class through education. Overall wellbeing uplift is no doubt but discrepancy in the society increases much more, which is a big problem. Back to HK problem, info access control is a real threat to the freedom of ordinary people, which will ruin the foundation of HK’s prosperity.
    - lettergram 7y ago
      > No tax is asked from farmers and kids of farmers are free to get higher pay either by either working as migrants in city or become new middle class through education Largely because they can't afford education[1], children become migrants. That's largely the group I'm talking about. Apparently, the current numbers stand at ~300 million migrant workers[2] in 2015 (stats I quoted was from 2008), BUT that's largely due to reclassification of the workers to "urban" as opposed to "migrant" class. Which means they can stay in their residence without a job. That does not mean they can afford things like education. Implying there's likely still closer to that ~700 million number who can't break out of poverty. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_in_China
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    This is garbage. Essentially slaves? Health, education, access to consumer goods, percentage urban, all of these have been rising pretty much non stop since the 80's. I live in Shanghai and have for seven years. There are plenty of people here living in less than ideal conditions, like in the apartment on the first floor of my block where people are sleeping six to a room but it beats being a peasant easily. Subsistence farming sucks. Urbanisation is a decent measure of increases in the standard of living here because even the worst city has many more opportunities than the countryside. One of the big convenience store chains here, FamilyMart, the workers have 7 day a week, 15 hour day shifts. I've seen some employees in the same FamilyMart for years. They stay because it's better than what they'd be able to get at home. They work vastly more hours than the middle class do, mostly, but they're earning about the same per week as kindergarten teachers here do, with their degree and much better job, about 8,000 yuan a month. You know what the annual income is in the countryside? 10,000 to 20,000 in Anhui, maybe four hours travel from Shanghai. People work these terrible jobs because they're used to working harder, for less money. Subsistence farming is an awful way to earn a living and people get the hell out as soon as they can, in China now and for the past thirty years just like in the UK during the industrial revolution. People left the countryside to work in the dark satanic mills because the countryside was worse. People choose to work in FamilyMart when there are other convenience store chains with shorter shifts and days off so they can save money so they can do things like buy a house, same as offshore oil rig workers or sailors spend months away from their family. People make choices, in circumstances you or I would never wish on anyone but they're free to make those choices. They're not slaves.
    - throwaway1997 7y ago
      You live in a Tier 1 city. Anhui, your example of the sticks, is mostly Tier 2. You have barely experienced most of China and have lived as an expat and think you can speak for the Chinese people?
magicsmoke 7y ago
Right now HK is stagnant and the mainland is rising. With all observations being relative to the observer's inertial frame though, that might feel like HK is falling from HK's perspective.
Aperocky 7y ago
LOL how dare you enjoy an equal life! I'm clearly superior and deserve a better life! Yeah go ahead fight for it, I'm sure people in the mainland will support them wholeheartedly. The gap has closed not because HK has became poorer, but because mainland became richer.
- throwaway1997 7y ago
  Ah so the solution to inequality is to not lift the poor up but to pull the successful down like crabs in a bucket [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

ma2rten 7y ago

I don't think so. The future is unpredictable. History is full of unexpected twists and turns.

gatoradezero 7y ago
History is also, "doomed to repeat itself." But I agree with you, it's better to stay open-minded about these things and, if all else, er on the side of optimism. It was just a couple of weeks ago that China was mobilizing troops on the border and people were calling for TSquare 2. If nothing happened then, I don't see why it would now.

ryacko 7y ago

I suspect the British learned from the Irish’s position on the partition of Ireland. A population with an incompatible culture will lead to indefinite struggle.