4 ms·

Getting a patent for something isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. Doing harm with those patents is. Many companies get patents to protect themselve

by nphase 16y ago

Getting a patent for something isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. Doing harm with those patents is. Many companies get patents to protect themselves from situations just like this one.

fuzzythinker 16y ago
until they get brought by a slightly eviler co.
- cookiecaper 16y ago
  It doesn't always have to work that way. If patents are secured, they can effectively be released into public domain, at least as far as I understand. Take a look at Xiph and Ogg; my understanding is that they publicly relinquished any rights to pursue infringement claims on their Vorbis-related (?) patents. IANAL. Someone may also take a more creative route and attempt to make the point that software patents are terrible and evil by doing something absurd and high-profile by wielding them. For instance, if people can't get an iPhone anymore because of an injunction related to a patent suit, people will get mad and someone will probably at least try to fix the law, but probably end up making it worse. Generally, it seems people don't care about principle as much as they care about having their fleeting wants fulfilled. If you take away American Idol or iPhone, you will get angry citizens.
  - fuzzythinker 16y ago
    Yes, both of these scenarios are what we hope, especially the latter since I don't envision the USPTO to just stop software patents without such catalyst. But as you know, obtaining patents to open to public domain isn't the norm. I would guess that change of leadership (or even change of heart of the leader) to ones who don't believe in the original defensive intent of the patent happens more frequently.
wazoox 16y ago
When companies must have patents to defend themselves against patent trolls, the only possible winners are lawyers. Software patents are completely wrong. As a side note, pg said that if software patents are wrong, then all patents are wrong. BTW I'm confident that most of current IP environment (both patents and copyright) hurts people and the economy.
- prodigal_erik 16y ago
  I don't think patents are wrong in all fields. They seem to work when you're required to claim a specific, high-effort solution that the industry wouldn't have found without you. They fail when you're allowed to claim an entire problem by being the first to write down the features all solutions have in common. With software, USPTO is enabling a land rush into a new discipline that doesn't yet have enough written prior art to make any useful work safe, and their bar for "novel and non-obvious" is absurdly low.
  - yason 16y ago
    Patents can help innovation but only in the rare cases where it's actually worth to license the patent in order to still make serious money _now_. But even specific patented solutions often seem to be a hindrance in overall development. As an example, when reading the history of steam engines, I recall several occasions where development simply halted until some patent expired. Nobody got any wealthier either but when the thing fell into public domain, innovation rushed forward. And this was in the 1800's, and pretty much a prime example of what the patent system was cooked up for: a mechanical, specified engineering invention... Yet it failed, already then.
- kljensen 16y ago
  Patents do not defend against "trolls" because "trolls" don't make products.
- forgottenpaswrd 16y ago
  Software patents are wrong but all are not. There is one difference: When you make a real patent you give a nation the knowledge(plans, diagrams, materials and explanation) to make something and IN EXCHANGE you receive from this nation a monopoly over this particular method for some years. Software patents are being used as a way of buying monopolies over generic ideas, not particular but broad methods so the powerful could destroy competition, without exposing the proprietary code(not giving the knowledge at all). The companies that grew and become powerful and rich without patents like MS and Apple want to use this money to buy them eternal prosperity against new comers. As Dr.Friedman said, the same companies that rise with free market want the free market destroyed. The same person that as a little guy opposed software patents as the boss of a big company tries to enforce it: "If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented, and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today." Bill Gates

by nphase 16y ago

Getting a patent for something isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. Doing harm with those patents is. Many companies get patents to protect themselves from situations just like this one.

fuzzythinker 16y ago

until they get brought by a slightly eviler co.

cookiecaper 16y ago
It doesn't always have to work that way. If patents are secured, they can effectively be released into public domain, at least as far as I understand. Take a look at Xiph and Ogg; my understanding is that they publicly relinquished any rights to pursue infringement claims on their Vorbis-related (?) patents. IANAL. Someone may also take a more creative route and attempt to make the point that software patents are terrible and evil by doing something absurd and high-profile by wielding them. For instance, if people can't get an iPhone anymore because of an injunction related to a patent suit, people will get mad and someone will probably at least try to fix the law, but probably end up making it worse. Generally, it seems people don't care about principle as much as they care about having their fleeting wants fulfilled. If you take away American Idol or iPhone, you will get angry citizens.
- fuzzythinker 16y ago
  Yes, both of these scenarios are what we hope, especially the latter since I don't envision the USPTO to just stop software patents without such catalyst. But as you know, obtaining patents to open to public domain isn't the norm. I would guess that change of leadership (or even change of heart of the leader) to ones who don't believe in the original defensive intent of the patent happens more frequently.

wazoox 16y ago

When companies must have patents to defend themselves against patent trolls, the only possible winners are lawyers. Software patents are completely wrong. As a side note, pg said that if software patents are wrong, then all patents are wrong. BTW I'm confident that most of current IP environment (both patents and copyright) hurts people and the economy.

prodigal_erik 16y ago
I don't think patents are wrong in all fields. They seem to work when you're required to claim a specific, high-effort solution that the industry wouldn't have found without you. They fail when you're allowed to claim an entire problem by being the first to write down the features all solutions have in common. With software, USPTO is enabling a land rush into a new discipline that doesn't yet have enough written prior art to make any useful work safe, and their bar for "novel and non-obvious" is absurdly low.
- yason 16y ago
  Patents can help innovation but only in the rare cases where it's actually worth to license the patent in order to still make serious money _now_. But even specific patented solutions often seem to be a hindrance in overall development. As an example, when reading the history of steam engines, I recall several occasions where development simply halted until some patent expired. Nobody got any wealthier either but when the thing fell into public domain, innovation rushed forward. And this was in the 1800's, and pretty much a prime example of what the patent system was cooked up for: a mechanical, specified engineering invention... Yet it failed, already then.
kljensen 16y ago
Patents do not defend against "trolls" because "trolls" don't make products.
forgottenpaswrd 16y ago
Software patents are wrong but all are not. There is one difference: When you make a real patent you give a nation the knowledge(plans, diagrams, materials and explanation) to make something and IN EXCHANGE you receive from this nation a monopoly over this particular method for some years. Software patents are being used as a way of buying monopolies over generic ideas, not particular but broad methods so the powerful could destroy competition, without exposing the proprietary code(not giving the knowledge at all). The companies that grew and become powerful and rich without patents like MS and Apple want to use this money to buy them eternal prosperity against new comers. As Dr.Friedman said, the same companies that rise with free market want the free market destroyed. The same person that as a little guy opposed software patents as the boss of a big company tries to enforce it: "If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented, and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today." Bill Gates