12 ms·

Have you ever read manufacturing consent? Household products like soap and flour used to be generic and without brands. Brand names were invented to differenti

Have you ever read manufacturing consent? Household products like soap and flour used to be generic and without brands. Brand names were invented to differentiate identical products. The entire history of marketing in the 20th century is appealing to people’s emotions with emotional oversimplifications. Their goal is to creat an uninformed, irrational consumer. There was a huge campaign against man made global warming, and its worked, a significant amount of people believe its a hoax. Many people thought Iraq was behind 9/11, or supported Al Queda. Propaganda is all around us, and it works!

enriquto 7y ago
All the examples that you say are quite old. What huge propaganda campaign is going on underhandedly in 2019?
- jbattle 7y ago
  "It is normal for tech companies to hoover up behavioral data about us, to package it up, and to sell it on to others for whatever purposes they want"
- fnord77 7y ago
  Just off the top of my head: -Lots of relentless propaganda trying to differentiate and demonize political parties (liberals/democrats bad and hate america!) when in reality there's not much difference between mainstream elements of both parties outside of wedge issues. -Lots of green-washing propaganda (consuming product X is good for the environment)
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    Add "super foods" to that list, which vary in actual health value but are all heavily supported by their associated agricultural consortium.
  - derefr 7y ago
    The former has been going on forever; the latter has been going on for at least as long as environmentalism itself. Also, both of these are "industry trends", where I think what the parent is asking for are campaigns unique to a single company and a single advertising agency, but with far-reaching effects on public perception beyond that company's brand.
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  Russia collusion
- LanceH 7y ago
  Keto or anti-keto -- one of those.
  - ericb 7y ago
    I tried really hard to find a profit motive as Keto was catching on a couple years ago, and I couldn't. Nobody was selling much. I'd lean toward anti-keto.
    - magduf 7y ago
      Of course there's a profit motive for Keto: selling books, movies, and magazines. Haven't you seen all the magazines at Whole Foods pushing keto and paleo diets? Or the "experts" selling books pushing them?
      - ericb 7y ago
        This was before all that. I couldn't even find a book. I found Keto by going through every diet subreddit and looking for which ones had the most before and after photos that were significant, and not sponsored by for-profit programs (like weight watchers). Intermittent fasting seems similar at the moment. Promising results, and I can't find a sponsor. Sure, given any trend, people will find a way to make a profit. But the kernel of these seems fairly organic, unlike say, the "South Beach Diet."
      - sjwright 7y ago
        There's also a profit motive to sell water, so maybe hydration is a scam too? To ericb's point—there's a massive difference between a profit motive of selling optional advice versus selling the "product". Like many real diets, keto is little more than a subset of foods already available at the supermarket. It's not like someone was trying to flog a special powder or vitamin pills.
        magduf 7y ago
        A book can easily cost as much as a special powder or vitamin pills. And yes, someone writing some pseudo-scientific book pushing "hydration" (in reality, over-hydration) is a scam artist too. I'd be very surprised if there aren't any such books out there. I case you're wondering, this "hydration" thing basically is a scam too, just like keto. Fun fact: it's generally impossible to die of dehydration, unless you genuinely don't have access to freshwater. People will drink when they're thirsty. No athletes have ever died of it. However, a significant number of athletes have died of over-hydration (water poisoning). Just like keto, it's dangerous and unhealthy.
- Udik 7y ago
  Israel has been lobbying and campaigning relentlessly for the past few decades to obtain and maintain political support from the West. The campaign has successfully instilled a few formulas in the public opinion- for example: 1) that Israel has a right to defend itself; (notice how subtly it shifts the issue from that of whether it is defending or attacking, to whether it has a right to defend itself from attacks). 2) that Israel's right to exist needs to be constantly reiterated. (Which implicitly suggests that it's possible the speaker doesn't recognize it- you don't ask somebody who criticizes France to declare it has a right to exist). 3) that the reason Israel is attacked is hatred and anti-Semitism. (And not, of course, that it is violation of international legality and human rights). 4) that there is no meaningful distinction between USA's objectives and Israel's. (While Israel and USA are separate countries and by nature have different objectives). Some less official but widespread ideas are the negation of Palestinians existence (they are just Arabs) and a "might makes right" principle ("Palestinians have lost and should get over with it").
  - KibbutzDalia 7y ago
    Hey @dang — why do you allow these off topic rants?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      It looks like a direct answer to the grandparent question "What huge propaganda campaign is going on underhandedly in 2019?" You may think it's wrong, but I don't see how it's off topic.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  They already mentioned the global-warming thing. "Global warming either isn't real or is completely natural, so we shouldn't try to fix it." It's been taking a beating recently, but they've only doubled down on it, and it's still got a lot of momentum.
- isostatic 7y ago
  Brexit
SilasX 7y ago
Wait, what? Branding is an important solution to the problem of validating product quality, as it attaches consequences to selling an inferior product, and thus saves on search costs. Yes, it's possible to waste too much money on branding, but the existence of brands, which creates incentive for consistent quality and attributes of a product, is not a bad thing in itself, even for commodity goods like flour and soap. IIRC, one of the old problems with general/convenience stores was having to ask around about which products are good, and branding has mostly solved that. (To answer the obvious objection: yes, regulation is another way to ensure consistent quality, but that has its ups and downs, like being slow to catch up with changing consumer preferences.)
- lotyrin 7y ago
  You absolutely can still grade commodities. A discerning distributor who has discerning retailers who have discerning consumers has plenty of incentives not to comingle inferior material into his shipments. The fact that consumers aren't very discerning is exactly created by brands -- they have learned to discern based on identity instead of by quality, because brand recognition is less effort than material inspection. Additionally, a brand certainly does not provide the attachment to consequence that you claim, once a brand has consumers' loyalty and a sizable market share it can adjust quality with relative impunity.
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    Toilet paper. Buy the cheap stuff and compare to the high end brands. Worlds of difference.
    - lotyrin 7y ago
      What point does this make that addresses mine? Of course there are different qualities of toilet paper. In a commodity-style market for toilet paper there would be competition on both price and on quality axes and there would likely be multiple points of equilibrium between quality and price.
refurb 7y ago
Brand names for soap and flour go back well over 100 years. And before they had names, they would have been associated with a store - “Jim’s mill has crappy flour”.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  > Brand names for soap and flour go back well over 100 years. I mean, that's the point, right? Each one's history stretches back at least 5-10k years.
sandworm101 7y ago
>> Household products like soap and flour used to be generic and without brands. Brand names were invented to differentiate identical products. And so people could choose to not buy bread/flour containing alum or chalk, both once common practice.
beamatronic 7y ago
Are Snap-on branded tools “identical” to Harbor Freight “branded” tools? I mean a wrench is a wrench, right?
- liability 7y ago
  I'd wager their wrenches are damn close to identical unless perhaps you're using a lengthy cheater. (Machines more complex than a simple lever probably have more room to differentiate themselves.)
  - tyingq 7y ago
    They aren't the same. At the very least, good wrenches are forged, shit ones are cast. Just for starters.
    - criddell 7y ago
      Harbor Freight sells lots of drop forged wrenches: https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-sae-offset-box-wrench-set-32041.html https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-sae-offset-box-wrench-... I wouldn't buy their stuff if my job depended on my tools, but for something I need twice a year at my house, no problem.
    - liability 7y ago
      My point was that you won't put enough force on either of them to discern a difference without a cheater bar. Maybe if it's a very small wrench. I'd like to see you torque a 1" harbor freight wrench to the point of failure with your bare hands. I don't think you could do it even with your full body weight or something to push off of. There are certainly cases where products differ enough in quality that there are pragmatic reasons to avoid some brands and prefer others. But I think standard wrenches are a poor example if you're trying to convey this point.
      - tyingq 7y ago
        Sure. It's usually cheater bars that bend/break cast wrenches. Not common for around the house stuff, but very common for rusty bolts on cars, for a shade tree mechanic. Though the tolerances on cheap wrenches can certainly round off nuts even in around the house situations.
Spooky23 7y ago
Have you ever baked? There is a big difference between using a consistent brand like King Arthur flour and a generic brand.
magduf 7y ago
>Brand names were invented to differentiate identical products. Wrong. Brand names were around during Roman times. Roman pottery has been unearthed which shows brand names and logos. It isn't anything new.
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  The sentence before the one you quoted refers to household items like flour and soap, not pottery.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
dstroot 7y ago
Found out recently my 77 year old mother (who spends a lot of time on Facebook) does not believe in global warming. I was completely shocked. She’s very religious and perhaps is targeted as a “low information” decision maker.
Stratoscope 7y ago
> Brand names were invented to differentiate identical products. The entire history of marketing in the 20th century is appealing to people’s emotions with emotional oversimplifications. Their goal is to creat an uninformed, irrational consumer. Gosh, that is so different from my own experience. Let me tell you about a brand I trust: Kirkland Signature Extra Virgin Toscano Olive Oil. Anyone who knows olive oil knows that it can be one of the scammiest products there is. "Italian" on the label may only mean that it's bottled in Italy, blended from stale olive oil from all over Europe and the mideast. It may have off odors and flavors, but you won't know until you open it. And how old is it? Your guess is as good as mine. This Toscano is the real deal, and it proudly lists the harvest date on the label. They don't have it all year round - when they run out you have to wait for the next harvest. So I have a few bottles of the October-December 2018 harvest in our "olive oil cellar" (a cool closet). Another good one is Trader Joe's Greek Kalamata olive oil, which also lists the harvest date. Both TJ's and Costco have lesser oils too; it's not just the store brand but the specific product brand that tells me I will be getting a quality olive oil. I don't see what's wrong with that.
a_imho 7y ago
It works both ways though, to some degree. Once someone is aware that the cost of branded products factors in the massive spending on propaganda, the rational decision is to buy off brand.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Branding in soap goes back hundreds of years
MarkMc 7y ago
Soap is far from identical - every soap has a different smell Wich is a major factor in consumer choice.
summerdown2 7y ago
Brand names for household products came into their own not to differentiate identical products, but rather to differentiate identical-seeming products. I.e.. because of the scandals of adulteration in the Victorian age. http://www.artisanfoodlaw.co.uk/history-of-food-law/19th-century/history-of-food-law-19th-century http://www.artisanfoodlaw.co.uk/history-of-food-law/19th-cen... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U29jOkKqI2kC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=brands+adulteration+victorian&source=bl&ots=jmxoOK2BPu&sig=ACfU3U1eGuc8VpQV1Cq2LcILbJwdI347Ww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiboqqk5afkAhXNasAKHWgVANk4FBDoATABegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=brands%20adulteration%20victorian&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U29jOkKqI2kC&pg=PA96&lpg...
ryanmercer 7y ago
>There was a huge campaign against man made global warming, and its worked, a significant amount of people believe its a hoax. Hell, the Southpark guys did and made fun of it for years... and now they're like "wait a minute, it is real, our bad" >Over the last two episodes, Parker and Stone have attempted to correct the mistake they made over a decade ago, as the boys beg Gore to help them fight the destruction of ManBearPig. While in 2006's South Park climate change was some silly myth, now it's a very real horror that most people still choose to ignore. . >South Park has never been one to say it was wrong. It's a show that will gladly stand by its depictions of everything from suicide to terrorist attacks and the prophet Muhammad. So, to admit it was wrong about its take on climate change 12 years ago is a surprising sign of maturity. https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a25127458/south-park-climate-change-manbearpig-apology-season-22-episode-7/ https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a25127458/south-par...

enriquto 7y ago

All the examples that you say are quite old. What huge propaganda campaign is going on underhandedly in 2019?

jbattle 7y ago
"It is normal for tech companies to hoover up behavioral data about us, to package it up, and to sell it on to others for whatever purposes they want"
fnord77 7y ago
Just off the top of my head: -Lots of relentless propaganda trying to differentiate and demonize political parties (liberals/democrats bad and hate america!) when in reality there's not much difference between mainstream elements of both parties outside of wedge issues. -Lots of green-washing propaganda (consuming product X is good for the environment)
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Add "super foods" to that list, which vary in actual health value but are all heavily supported by their associated agricultural consortium.
- derefr 7y ago
  The former has been going on forever; the latter has been going on for at least as long as environmentalism itself. Also, both of these are "industry trends", where I think what the parent is asking for are campaigns unique to a single company and a single advertising agency, but with far-reaching effects on public perception beyond that company's brand.
Consultant32452 7y ago
Russia collusion
LanceH 7y ago
Keto or anti-keto -- one of those.
- ericb 7y ago
  I tried really hard to find a profit motive as Keto was catching on a couple years ago, and I couldn't. Nobody was selling much. I'd lean toward anti-keto.
  - magduf 7y ago
    Of course there's a profit motive for Keto: selling books, movies, and magazines. Haven't you seen all the magazines at Whole Foods pushing keto and paleo diets? Or the "experts" selling books pushing them?
    - ericb 7y ago
      This was before all that. I couldn't even find a book. I found Keto by going through every diet subreddit and looking for which ones had the most before and after photos that were significant, and not sponsored by for-profit programs (like weight watchers). Intermittent fasting seems similar at the moment. Promising results, and I can't find a sponsor. Sure, given any trend, people will find a way to make a profit. But the kernel of these seems fairly organic, unlike say, the "South Beach Diet."
    - sjwright 7y ago
      There's also a profit motive to sell water, so maybe hydration is a scam too? To ericb's point—there's a massive difference between a profit motive of selling optional advice versus selling the "product". Like many real diets, keto is little more than a subset of foods already available at the supermarket. It's not like someone was trying to flog a special powder or vitamin pills.
      - magduf 7y ago
        A book can easily cost as much as a special powder or vitamin pills. And yes, someone writing some pseudo-scientific book pushing "hydration" (in reality, over-hydration) is a scam artist too. I'd be very surprised if there aren't any such books out there. I case you're wondering, this "hydration" thing basically is a scam too, just like keto. Fun fact: it's generally impossible to die of dehydration, unless you genuinely don't have access to freshwater. People will drink when they're thirsty. No athletes have ever died of it. However, a significant number of athletes have died of over-hydration (water poisoning). Just like keto, it's dangerous and unhealthy.
Udik 7y ago
Israel has been lobbying and campaigning relentlessly for the past few decades to obtain and maintain political support from the West. The campaign has successfully instilled a few formulas in the public opinion- for example: 1) that Israel has a right to defend itself; (notice how subtly it shifts the issue from that of whether it is defending or attacking, to whether it has a right to defend itself from attacks). 2) that Israel's right to exist needs to be constantly reiterated. (Which implicitly suggests that it's possible the speaker doesn't recognize it- you don't ask somebody who criticizes France to declare it has a right to exist). 3) that the reason Israel is attacked is hatred and anti-Semitism. (And not, of course, that it is violation of international legality and human rights). 4) that there is no meaningful distinction between USA's objectives and Israel's. (While Israel and USA are separate countries and by nature have different objectives). Some less official but widespread ideas are the negation of Palestinians existence (they are just Arabs) and a "might makes right" principle ("Palestinians have lost and should get over with it").
- KibbutzDalia 7y ago
  Hey @dang — why do you allow these off topic rants?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    It looks like a direct answer to the grandparent question "What huge propaganda campaign is going on underhandedly in 2019?" You may think it's wrong, but I don't see how it's off topic.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
They already mentioned the global-warming thing. "Global warming either isn't real or is completely natural, so we shouldn't try to fix it." It's been taking a beating recently, but they've only doubled down on it, and it's still got a lot of momentum.
isostatic 7y ago
Brexit

SilasX 7y ago

Wait, what? Branding is an important solution to the problem of validating product quality, as it attaches consequences to selling an inferior product, and thus saves on search costs. Yes, it's possible to waste too much money on branding, but the existence of brands, which creates incentive for consistent quality and attributes of a product, is not a bad thing in itself, even for commodity goods like flour and soap. IIRC, one of the old problems with general/convenience stores was having to ask around about which products are good, and branding has mostly solved that. (To answer the obvious objection: yes, regulation is another way to ensure consistent quality, but that has its ups and downs, like being slow to catch up with changing consumer preferences.)

lotyrin 7y ago
You absolutely can still grade commodities. A discerning distributor who has discerning retailers who have discerning consumers has plenty of incentives not to comingle inferior material into his shipments. The fact that consumers aren't very discerning is exactly created by brands -- they have learned to discern based on identity instead of by quality, because brand recognition is less effort than material inspection. Additionally, a brand certainly does not provide the attachment to consequence that you claim, once a brand has consumers' loyalty and a sizable market share it can adjust quality with relative impunity.
- merpnderp 7y ago
  Toilet paper. Buy the cheap stuff and compare to the high end brands. Worlds of difference.
  - lotyrin 7y ago
    What point does this make that addresses mine? Of course there are different qualities of toilet paper. In a commodity-style market for toilet paper there would be competition on both price and on quality axes and there would likely be multiple points of equilibrium between quality and price.

refurb 7y ago

Brand names for soap and flour go back well over 100 years. And before they had names, they would have been associated with a store - “Jim’s mill has crappy flour”.

ceejayoz 7y ago
> Brand names for soap and flour go back well over 100 years. I mean, that's the point, right? Each one's history stretches back at least 5-10k years.

sandworm101 7y ago

>> Household products like soap and flour used to be generic and without brands. Brand names were invented to differentiate identical products. And so people could choose to not buy bread/flour containing alum or chalk, both once common practice.

beamatronic 7y ago

Are Snap-on branded tools “identical” to Harbor Freight “branded” tools? I mean a wrench is a wrench, right?

liability 7y ago
I'd wager their wrenches are damn close to identical unless perhaps you're using a lengthy cheater. (Machines more complex than a simple lever probably have more room to differentiate themselves.)
- tyingq 7y ago
  They aren't the same. At the very least, good wrenches are forged, shit ones are cast. Just for starters.
  - criddell 7y ago
    Harbor Freight sells lots of drop forged wrenches: https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-sae-offset-box-wrench-set-32041.html https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-sae-offset-box-wrench-... I wouldn't buy their stuff if my job depended on my tools, but for something I need twice a year at my house, no problem.
  - liability 7y ago
    My point was that you won't put enough force on either of them to discern a difference without a cheater bar. Maybe if it's a very small wrench. I'd like to see you torque a 1" harbor freight wrench to the point of failure with your bare hands. I don't think you could do it even with your full body weight or something to push off of. There are certainly cases where products differ enough in quality that there are pragmatic reasons to avoid some brands and prefer others. But I think standard wrenches are a poor example if you're trying to convey this point.
    - tyingq 7y ago
      Sure. It's usually cheater bars that bend/break cast wrenches. Not common for around the house stuff, but very common for rusty bolts on cars, for a shade tree mechanic. Though the tolerances on cheap wrenches can certainly round off nuts even in around the house situations.

Spooky23 7y ago

Have you ever baked? There is a big difference between using a consistent brand like King Arthur flour and a generic brand.

magduf 7y ago

>Brand names were invented to differentiate identical products. Wrong. Brand names were around during Roman times. Roman pottery has been unearthed which shows brand names and logos. It isn't anything new.

ilikehurdles 7y ago
The sentence before the one you quoted refers to household items like flour and soap, not pottery.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

dstroot 7y ago

Found out recently my 77 year old mother (who spends a lot of time on Facebook) does not believe in global warming. I was completely shocked. She’s very religious and perhaps is targeted as a “low information” decision maker.

Stratoscope 7y ago

> Brand names were invented to differentiate identical products. The entire history of marketing in the 20th century is appealing to people’s emotions with emotional oversimplifications. Their goal is to creat an uninformed, irrational consumer. Gosh, that is so different from my own experience. Let me tell you about a brand I trust: Kirkland Signature Extra Virgin Toscano Olive Oil. Anyone who knows olive oil knows that it can be one of the scammiest products there is. "Italian" on the label may only mean that it's bottled in Italy, blended from stale olive oil from all over Europe and the mideast. It may have off odors and flavors, but you won't know until you open it. And how old is it? Your guess is as good as mine. This Toscano is the real deal, and it proudly lists the harvest date on the label. They don't have it all year round - when they run out you have to wait for the next harvest. So I have a few bottles of the October-December 2018 harvest in our "olive oil cellar" (a cool closet). Another good one is Trader Joe's Greek Kalamata olive oil, which also lists the harvest date. Both TJ's and Costco have lesser oils too; it's not just the store brand but the specific product brand that tells me I will be getting a quality olive oil. I don't see what's wrong with that.

a_imho 7y ago

It works both ways though, to some degree. Once someone is aware that the cost of branded products factors in the massive spending on propaganda, the rational decision is to buy off brand.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Branding in soap goes back hundreds of years

MarkMc 7y ago

Soap is far from identical - every soap has a different smell Wich is a major factor in consumer choice.

summerdown2 7y ago

Brand names for household products came into their own not to differentiate identical products, but rather to differentiate identical-seeming products. I.e.. because of the scandals of adulteration in the Victorian age. http://www.artisanfoodlaw.co.uk/history-of-food-law/19th-century/history-of-food-law-19th-century http://www.artisanfoodlaw.co.uk/history-of-food-law/19th-cen... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U29jOkKqI2kC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=brands+adulteration+victorian&source=bl&ots=jmxoOK2BPu&sig=ACfU3U1eGuc8VpQV1Cq2LcILbJwdI347Ww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiboqqk5afkAhXNasAKHWgVANk4FBDoATABegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=brands%20adulteration%20victorian&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U29jOkKqI2kC&pg=PA96&lpg...

ryanmercer 7y ago

>There was a huge campaign against man made global warming, and its worked, a significant amount of people believe its a hoax. Hell, the Southpark guys did and made fun of it for years... and now they're like "wait a minute, it is real, our bad" >Over the last two episodes, Parker and Stone have attempted to correct the mistake they made over a decade ago, as the boys beg Gore to help them fight the destruction of ManBearPig. While in 2006's South Park climate change was some silly myth, now it's a very real horror that most people still choose to ignore. . >South Park has never been one to say it was wrong. It's a show that will gladly stand by its depictions of everything from suicide to terrorist attacks and the prophet Muhammad. So, to admit it was wrong about its take on climate change 12 years ago is a surprising sign of maturity. https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a25127458/south-park-climate-change-manbearpig-apology-season-22-episode-7/ https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a25127458/south-par...