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This is really applicable to any products that are valued based on their marketing efforts instead of intrinsic value or utility. Costume jewellery, designer cl

This is really applicable to any products that are valued based on their marketing efforts instead of intrinsic value or utility. Costume jewellery, designer clothes, some kinds of art, all derive their value from the story the creators tell. The most expensive art seems to be that which has the most thoroughly verified, or at least the most believable story. I like to think I’d prefer Apple products over the competition and pay a premium for them even if I didn’t know Jobs or Ive, or watched the marketing videos - but I’m not entirely sure these days. I Tim Cook said Apple products were super cheap to produce, or Ive said he didn’t design any of them and had some intern do it, would sales tank?

jolux 7y ago
Apple stuff is just so clearly beyond anything the competition provides with regards to software, though. I don’t really buy them for the hardware, I buy them because I don’t like Windows or Android, and I don’t want to futz with Linux. Android is still too inconsistent design-wise.
rootusrootus 7y ago
I buy Apple products in spite of Cook and Ive. I am mostly ambivalent about Cook, though I don't think he's nearly as strong a leader as Jobs was. And I really dislike Ive. If he disavowed his designs as coming from an intern, I'd feel relieved.
seem_2211 7y ago
Price, value and practical utility are not really correlated. A Rolex and a Timex will both tell you the time. An iPhone and a $129 Android will do mostly similar things. A Toyota Camry and a Porsche will both get you to work. But practical utility and value aren't necessarily the most important thing. Apple intuitively understood this, at a time when other computer companies didn't. Lots of people look at a Macbook and see an overpriced computer that costs a few hundred dollars more than a similarly equipped PC, albeit in a pretty case. But that's the point - lots of people want their computer to look good! Apple products are relatively cheap to produce - and they make an enormous margin on their hardware. But it doesn't feel cheap. The boxes are substantial. The finishings are high quality. The user experience is taken care of. Other PC makers might have been much cheaper, but you notice that to do so, they've cut corners in places. I don't think the lesson here is in what he said, but rather that he made his customers feel like idiots. Only a fool would believe that a ring for £1 has the level of quality and craftsmanship that you'd get with a £100 ring, but you don't want to feel like a dumbass for buying it. You don't go to McDonalds with expectations of buying a Michelin Star meal. You go there for something warm & tasty, that comes out quickly.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >A Toyota Camry and a Porsche will both get you to work. That's not the practical utility people want out of a Porsche. They want the practical utility of impressing people (including the other sex), appearing well off and sporty, etc. Those are also practical considerations - just not the first that come to mind when one thinks of cars (although not very far). (Practical as in: not aesthetic but with real life impact on real life goals). >Apple products are relatively cheap to produce So they say, but e.g. other manufacturers tried for the first 2-3 years years to get a tablet with the specs of the iPad, and still couldn't get theirs at a lower price... Or how if you add the same SSD/video/memory/CPU/etc options to a PC laptop, you get close to the same prices. I know cause I've tried to build an equivalent Lenovo (and a few other brands) and it gets so close I might as well just get the MBP.
  - im3w1l 7y ago
    > They want the practical utility of impressing people (including the other sex) And it's not gonna do that if the CEO shits on his own product. Things that are good because they are good are less vulnerable than things whose value comes from being impressive because of marketing.
- foobarandgrill 7y ago
  >Lots of people look at a Macbook and see an overpriced computer that costs a few hundred dollars more than a similarly equipped PC, albeit in a pretty case. I was shopping for a dev laptop about a year or two ago, and it was more like double the price rather than just a few hundred dollars more.
  - DangitBobby 7y ago
    Definitely. A new MacBook pro with 16GB RAM, a decently speedy 512 GB SSD, the basic display, dedicated graphics, and an 2.3 GHz 8 core i9 costs $2.8K [0]. An XPS 15 with 32GB RAM, a decently speedy 1TB SSD, the basic display, dedicated graphics, and a 5.0 GHz 8 core i9 costs like $2.3K [1]. I couldn't customize the XPS enough to do a direct comparison. But the XPS 15 with the almost the same specs as the MacBook other than having an i7 was about 1.6K. • 0 https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch • 1 https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-15-laptop/spd/xps-15-7590-laptop/xnber5cr649ps?configurationid=fc22b4b5-434e-4c5d-ae27-eac18e9c1a79 https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-15-lapt...
pavlov 7y ago
The value of the well-told story applies equally well to products that do have intrinsic utility. Look at how we developers choose the software we use. People making these decisions often claim their choices are made on purely rational grounds. But why then do large companies choose to spend so much money marketing things like Kubernetes, React, MongoDB, Red Hat Linux, etc? Surely these high-quality projects would stand their own in a marketplace of open code even without the money... Some software companies like Oracle tell their stories primarily to corporate buyers, and developers sneer at them, thinking they're too smart to fall for that. Other companies like Google, Facebook and Microsoft have learned to tell their stories in ways that leave developers oblivious that they're being marketed to.
squirrelicus 7y ago
> This is really applicable to any products that are valued based on their marketing efforts instead of intrinsic value or utility Care to elaborate what your distinction here is? I don't see it.
blackflame7000 7y ago
"The most expensive art seems to be that which has the most thoroughly verified, or at least the most believable story." What story does one of the most expensive paintings of all time, Jackson Pollock #5, tell?
- abruzzi 7y ago
  The story that the OP is referring to is not the story (if any) portrayed by the art, but the story of the work itself. So it is bound up in the story of the artist, the history of a particular work, and the path from the artist's conception to the the most current owner. You might call that provenance, but it's a wider net than just that.
- privateprofile 7y ago
  A story of people who view art as a trophy, or as an ultimate symbol of wealth?
- meristem 7y ago
  Story-->Provenance
lonelappde 7y ago
Costume jewelry is cheap. Real jewelry is overpriced because of the marketing around gemstones.
w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
You also buy Apple products for the software, not only for the hardware. Comparing a windows laptop with highier specs with a macbook is like to compare a stupid blonde with big tits with a smart, classy and well tempered brunette. The cover is flashier and catch the attention on first sight but it's a burden to live with on a daily basis.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Gibbon1 7y ago
> Costume jewellery, designer clothes, some kinds of art, all derive their value from the story the creators tell. As a young lady my GF used to sell her handmade costume Jewelry on the street in New York. She said the key to selling was a card with a story. That was the difference between selling a brooch made of glass, brass and random bits held together with glue for $10-20 and not selling at all. Things are different with utility items. I remember a retailer (my brain won't cough up the name, but every man over 40 would recognize them). He said his brand was, well made spiffy but not too spiffy men's clothes. His profit margin depended an a working age man being able to go in, buy a couple of shirts, pants, and a coat knowing he wouldn't look like a dork when he wore them to work. I feel like that's Apple products too.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  >I feel like that's Apple products too. I don't buy Apple products for its story. I buy Apple products because I don't have to spend time doing tech support/dealing with malware for my parents and if something breaks I can go get a replacement at the Apple store immediately.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    That's exactly what I tried to convey. The selling point is functional with a reliable lack of hassle.

jolux 7y ago

Apple stuff is just so clearly beyond anything the competition provides with regards to software, though. I don’t really buy them for the hardware, I buy them because I don’t like Windows or Android, and I don’t want to futz with Linux. Android is still too inconsistent design-wise.

rootusrootus 7y ago

I buy Apple products in spite of Cook and Ive. I am mostly ambivalent about Cook, though I don't think he's nearly as strong a leader as Jobs was. And I really dislike Ive. If he disavowed his designs as coming from an intern, I'd feel relieved.

seem_2211 7y ago

Price, value and practical utility are not really correlated. A Rolex and a Timex will both tell you the time. An iPhone and a $129 Android will do mostly similar things. A Toyota Camry and a Porsche will both get you to work. But practical utility and value aren't necessarily the most important thing. Apple intuitively understood this, at a time when other computer companies didn't. Lots of people look at a Macbook and see an overpriced computer that costs a few hundred dollars more than a similarly equipped PC, albeit in a pretty case. But that's the point - lots of people want their computer to look good! Apple products are relatively cheap to produce - and they make an enormous margin on their hardware. But it doesn't feel cheap. The boxes are substantial. The finishings are high quality. The user experience is taken care of. Other PC makers might have been much cheaper, but you notice that to do so, they've cut corners in places. I don't think the lesson here is in what he said, but rather that he made his customers feel like idiots. Only a fool would believe that a ring for £1 has the level of quality and craftsmanship that you'd get with a £100 ring, but you don't want to feel like a dumbass for buying it. You don't go to McDonalds with expectations of buying a Michelin Star meal. You go there for something warm & tasty, that comes out quickly.

coldtea 7y ago
>A Toyota Camry and a Porsche will both get you to work. That's not the practical utility people want out of a Porsche. They want the practical utility of impressing people (including the other sex), appearing well off and sporty, etc. Those are also practical considerations - just not the first that come to mind when one thinks of cars (although not very far). (Practical as in: not aesthetic but with real life impact on real life goals). >Apple products are relatively cheap to produce So they say, but e.g. other manufacturers tried for the first 2-3 years years to get a tablet with the specs of the iPad, and still couldn't get theirs at a lower price... Or how if you add the same SSD/video/memory/CPU/etc options to a PC laptop, you get close to the same prices. I know cause I've tried to build an equivalent Lenovo (and a few other brands) and it gets so close I might as well just get the MBP.
- im3w1l 7y ago
  > They want the practical utility of impressing people (including the other sex) And it's not gonna do that if the CEO shits on his own product. Things that are good because they are good are less vulnerable than things whose value comes from being impressive because of marketing.
foobarandgrill 7y ago
>Lots of people look at a Macbook and see an overpriced computer that costs a few hundred dollars more than a similarly equipped PC, albeit in a pretty case. I was shopping for a dev laptop about a year or two ago, and it was more like double the price rather than just a few hundred dollars more.
- DangitBobby 7y ago
  Definitely. A new MacBook pro with 16GB RAM, a decently speedy 512 GB SSD, the basic display, dedicated graphics, and an 2.3 GHz 8 core i9 costs $2.8K [0]. An XPS 15 with 32GB RAM, a decently speedy 1TB SSD, the basic display, dedicated graphics, and a 5.0 GHz 8 core i9 costs like $2.3K [1]. I couldn't customize the XPS enough to do a direct comparison. But the XPS 15 with the almost the same specs as the MacBook other than having an i7 was about 1.6K. • 0 https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch • 1 https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-15-laptop/spd/xps-15-7590-laptop/xnber5cr649ps?configurationid=fc22b4b5-434e-4c5d-ae27-eac18e9c1a79 https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-15-lapt...

pavlov 7y ago

The value of the well-told story applies equally well to products that do have intrinsic utility. Look at how we developers choose the software we use. People making these decisions often claim their choices are made on purely rational grounds. But why then do large companies choose to spend so much money marketing things like Kubernetes, React, MongoDB, Red Hat Linux, etc? Surely these high-quality projects would stand their own in a marketplace of open code even without the money... Some software companies like Oracle tell their stories primarily to corporate buyers, and developers sneer at them, thinking they're too smart to fall for that. Other companies like Google, Facebook and Microsoft have learned to tell their stories in ways that leave developers oblivious that they're being marketed to.

squirrelicus 7y ago

> This is really applicable to any products that are valued based on their marketing efforts instead of intrinsic value or utility Care to elaborate what your distinction here is? I don't see it.

blackflame7000 7y ago

"The most expensive art seems to be that which has the most thoroughly verified, or at least the most believable story." What story does one of the most expensive paintings of all time, Jackson Pollock #5, tell?

abruzzi 7y ago
The story that the OP is referring to is not the story (if any) portrayed by the art, but the story of the work itself. So it is bound up in the story of the artist, the history of a particular work, and the path from the artist's conception to the the most current owner. You might call that provenance, but it's a wider net than just that.
privateprofile 7y ago
A story of people who view art as a trophy, or as an ultimate symbol of wealth?
meristem 7y ago
Story-->Provenance

lonelappde 7y ago

Costume jewelry is cheap. Real jewelry is overpriced because of the marketing around gemstones.

w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago

You also buy Apple products for the software, not only for the hardware. Comparing a windows laptop with highier specs with a macbook is like to compare a stupid blonde with big tits with a smart, classy and well tempered brunette. The cover is flashier and catch the attention on first sight but it's a burden to live with on a daily basis.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Gibbon1 7y ago

> Costume jewellery, designer clothes, some kinds of art, all derive their value from the story the creators tell. As a young lady my GF used to sell her handmade costume Jewelry on the street in New York. She said the key to selling was a card with a story. That was the difference between selling a brooch made of glass, brass and random bits held together with glue for $10-20 and not selling at all. Things are different with utility items. I remember a retailer (my brain won't cough up the name, but every man over 40 would recognize them). He said his brand was, well made spiffy but not too spiffy men's clothes. His profit margin depended an a working age man being able to go in, buy a couple of shirts, pants, and a coat knowing he wouldn't look like a dork when he wore them to work. I feel like that's Apple products too.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
>I feel like that's Apple products too. I don't buy Apple products for its story. I buy Apple products because I don't have to spend time doing tech support/dealing with malware for my parents and if something breaks I can go get a replacement at the Apple store immediately.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  That's exactly what I tried to convey. The selling point is functional with a reliable lack of hassle.