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"The question really comes down to whether or not you consider the opportunity to experience life, even a particularly difficult life, as a blessing." A life b
by Relys 7y ago
"The question really comes down to whether or not you consider the opportunity to experience life, even a particularly difficult life, as a blessing."
A life born of slavery, torture, and slaughter is not a life worth living. An animal doesn't really have the idea of a bloodline or legacy (just the primal urge to reproduce). The rationalization that a life of suffering is somehow doing the animal a favor is just asinine.
- jonfw 7y agoPersonally, I would accept any form of life before I chose not to exist at all, because I view life itself as a blessing. I understand that this isn't a philosophy that I share with everybody but you should still be respectful of it. Just how shitty of a life do you need to have to not be worth living? People who spend their lives in prison don't usually kill themselves. You can read stories about people captured as prisoners of war who have no hope that they will ever escape, but they don't attempt to kill themselves. Are they being "asinine"?
- bigwavedave 7y agoReally? Personally, if I died and there was a deity that gave me a choice to either be reincarnated into a slave that would be tortured from birth to death only to be eaten by my slavers at the end or the deity would go back in time to make it so my parents never met, I'd wholeheartedly choose the latter.
- jonfw 7y agoI'm not much of a philsopher, but if you're at all interested in the other side of thinking I would suggest Viktor Frankl. He was a jewish person in a nazi concentration camp and he make a much stronger argument than I can for this point of view. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl > After enduring the suffering in these camps, Frankl concluded that even in the most absurd, painful, and dehumanized situation, life has potential meaning and that, therefore, even suffering is meaningful.
- rhn_mk1 7y agoThank you for the link! After reading a little bit about meaning, it seems that it's something that has to be found first https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_(existential) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_(existential) so even if there's meaning in the most miserable of lives, it's not guaranteed that it will be found. However, I haven't found anything suggesting that meaning makes life worth living, only a passing mention of it bringing happiness, which doesn't square with my understanding of torture or concentration camps. Am I misunderstanding what meaning is?
- GeneralTspoon 7y agoNot to minimize his suffering, but spending ~3 years out of his 92 year life being tortured isn't the same as a whole life of torture with no meaning or hope of escape.
- Relys 7y agoYeah, it's not like the Nazi's were breeding Jews for the express purpose of a life of slavery, torture, and slaughter. I think comparing it is a false equivalency. Also Godwin's Law.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ewb 7y agoSo by extension, don't you have an ethical obligation to have as many children as possible regardless of the quality of life you can provide them? At least they'll have a life that they wouldn't have had otherwise.
- Relys 7y agoI bet you $10 they are a forced-birther. Under His Eye. Blessed be the fruit.
- jonfw 7y agoI believe abortion is generally immoral, but I also believe that my opinion is not important and should not dictate public policy. And when I say generally immoral, it obviously becomes nuanced when rape or young age is involved.
- Relys 7y agoMy parents decided to have an abortion because they were not financially ready to have children. I probably wouldn't exist if they hadn't. Does that mean their abortion had more right to live than I? My parents lived for years with the guilt that had been instilled in them by their religious upbringing. It was one of the hardest decisions they ever had to make so they could give their future offspring the best life possible. Research has shown that abortion laws lead to lower crime rates, lower poverty and a higher educated populous. My sisters and I are living proof of that.
- jonfw 7y agoI certainly agree that there can be a lot of utility in abortions. Frankly that's the major reason why I don't support abortion legislation. I am somewhat a utilitarian and I understand that there are instances where the utility might outweigh the ineherent immorality. But I do believe that there is an inherent immorality. Similarly, I think it is immoral to use force to get other people to do what you want. But that quickly becomes a nuanced argument when you start taking public safety into account, or crime prevention. Life doesn't take place in a vacuum so I'm not trying to pass judgement.
- missingrib 7y agoA life where you're tortured for a year and then are slaughtered.
- nojvek 7y agoI guess that's how the slaveowners thought back in the day too.