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Would you agree that money laundering is an issue when politicians have to conceal bribery?

by jonfw 7y ago

syshum 7y ago
Political Bribery is a symptom of too much consolidation of power, and/or too much power in government in general Systems of distributed power, with robust checks and balances are the solution to political corruption, not authoritarian money laundering laws
- mc32 7y ago
  Im not sure that’s a hard rule. China strong power consolidation, India is more distributed and the central gov is relative to China weaker, but while both suffer forms of corruption, India is above and beyond what you’d experience in China, from talking to folks familiar with both places.
  - syshum 7y ago
    I am not really familiar with India's government but I suspect they suffer from the same problem that hard core "States Rights" people in the US Suffer from When I say Distributed power, with Checks and balances, that does not simply mean small regional Fifedom's with unlimited power. I suspect India's weak central government has limited power over the local regional governments making them very corruptible. "Distributed power" is not synonymous with "small regional power" One of the things the US gets right is neither that state nor the federal government is "more powerful" than the other, each have their place, and both can in different circumstances overrule each other, this has the benifiet of ensuring States do not go crazy with power and corruption, and that the feds do not go crazy with power and corruption Over the last 200 years however we have consolidated ALOT of power into the Federal government, this is making things very very bad if you enjoy and prefer an individualist society with personal liberty
- jonfw 7y ago
  Obviously if nothing is illegal than we don't need "authoritarian money laundering laws". But I'm sure we can agree on at least some things that should be illegal. Should hitmen be able to launder money? And I need to point out that it would be extremely difficult to decentralize authority so much that bribery is completely impractical without it being illegal. In such a society where there is no legal friction associated with bribery, what's to stop rich people from bribing police officers?
  - resters 7y ago
    > what’s to stop rich people from bribing police officers? In white collar crime such bribery is extremely common.
    - resters 7y ago
      Not sure why this got downvoted. The college admissions scandal is about something that has been going on for years with no consequences, and most insider traders get away with it at will, not to mention all sorts of tax evasion, payroll fraud, etc. Notably, an employer committing payroll fraud was recently brought to justice in Michigan by the new AG. It made headlines because such crimes are virtually never subject to law enforcement attention.
      - jonfw 7y ago
        The context of the discussion was whether or not bribery should be illegal, I think it was already generally accepted that bribery is a problem that exists. I didn't personally see the relevance of your initial comment. > It made headlines because such crimes are virtually never subject to law enforcement attention. This is the sort of claim that needs citation. I'm not trying to argue with you, but the only support for this statement is your authority on the subject, and since you speak anonymously your authority is very limited. This also applies to your initial comment. I didn't downvote you, and I actually agree with you that corruption often goes unpunished, but since you asked I thought I might point it out. In my experience, my comments on the internet that lack support don't get a good reception.
- chiefalchemist 7y ago
  Agreed. Those who write and enforce the laws will always know how to circumvent them. Given the endless list of examples, I'm not sure why the rest of continue to have so much (blind) faith in what boils down to (the failure of) self-policing.

Would you agree that money laundering is an issue when politicians have to conceal bribery?

by jonfw 7y ago

Would you agree that money laundering is an issue when politicians have to conceal bribery?

Political Bribery is a symptom of too much consolidation of power, and/or too much power in government in general Systems of distributed power, with robust checks and balances are the solution to political corruption, not authoritarian money laundering laws

mc32 7y ago
Im not sure that’s a hard rule. China strong power consolidation, India is more distributed and the central gov is relative to China weaker, but while both suffer forms of corruption, India is above and beyond what you’d experience in China, from talking to folks familiar with both places.
- syshum 7y ago
  I am not really familiar with India's government but I suspect they suffer from the same problem that hard core "States Rights" people in the US Suffer from When I say Distributed power, with Checks and balances, that does not simply mean small regional Fifedom's with unlimited power. I suspect India's weak central government has limited power over the local regional governments making them very corruptible. "Distributed power" is not synonymous with "small regional power" One of the things the US gets right is neither that state nor the federal government is "more powerful" than the other, each have their place, and both can in different circumstances overrule each other, this has the benifiet of ensuring States do not go crazy with power and corruption, and that the feds do not go crazy with power and corruption Over the last 200 years however we have consolidated ALOT of power into the Federal government, this is making things very very bad if you enjoy and prefer an individualist society with personal liberty
jonfw 7y ago
Obviously if nothing is illegal than we don't need "authoritarian money laundering laws". But I'm sure we can agree on at least some things that should be illegal. Should hitmen be able to launder money? And I need to point out that it would be extremely difficult to decentralize authority so much that bribery is completely impractical without it being illegal. In such a society where there is no legal friction associated with bribery, what's to stop rich people from bribing police officers?
- resters 7y ago
  > what’s to stop rich people from bribing police officers? In white collar crime such bribery is extremely common.
  - resters 7y ago
    Not sure why this got downvoted. The college admissions scandal is about something that has been going on for years with no consequences, and most insider traders get away with it at will, not to mention all sorts of tax evasion, payroll fraud, etc. Notably, an employer committing payroll fraud was recently brought to justice in Michigan by the new AG. It made headlines because such crimes are virtually never subject to law enforcement attention.
    - jonfw 7y ago
      The context of the discussion was whether or not bribery should be illegal, I think it was already generally accepted that bribery is a problem that exists. I didn't personally see the relevance of your initial comment. > It made headlines because such crimes are virtually never subject to law enforcement attention. This is the sort of claim that needs citation. I'm not trying to argue with you, but the only support for this statement is your authority on the subject, and since you speak anonymously your authority is very limited. This also applies to your initial comment. I didn't downvote you, and I actually agree with you that corruption often goes unpunished, but since you asked I thought I might point it out. In my experience, my comments on the internet that lack support don't get a good reception.
chiefalchemist 7y ago
Agreed. Those who write and enforce the laws will always know how to circumvent them. Given the endless list of examples, I'm not sure why the rest of continue to have so much (blind) faith in what boils down to (the failure of) self-policing.