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>This seems very different from the normal forgery I would expect where the forger gets a large fraction of the bar's value. The only way to make passable fake

>This seems very different from the normal forgery I would expect where the forger gets a large fraction of the bar's value. The only way to make passable fake gold bullion based on weight is to use tungsten clad with gold, and even that is trivial to detect with any proper equipment (which can be hard commercially starting around the cost of an ounce of gold) if the cladding isn't sufficiently thick. Silver is faked way, way, way more wildly. I'm a mod of /r/silverbugs and I've been compiling a list of fakes members of the sub have found over the years, there's some really fake gold in there too https://www.ryanmercer.com/ryansthoughts/2014/8/22/fake-silver.html https://www.ryanmercer.com/ryansthoughts/2014/8/22/fake-silv...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
microtherion 7y ago
> The only way to make passable fake gold bullion based on weight is to use tungsten clad with gold <hat scientist="mad"> Couldn't you, say, mix plutonium with a small amount of lead to dial in the weight you need? </hat>
- philipkglass 7y ago
  Metallic plutonium is far rarer and more tightly controlled than gold. There is no civilian market for it. Building a new plutonium separation-and-metallization facility for processing spent civil nuclear fuel is more expensive than a new gold mine. Plutonium is also easy to detect by its radioactivity.
  - microtherion 7y ago
    Yes, I know all of that, was just asking why this would be detectible by weight. Picked plutonium for the lulz. It looks like osmium or platinum would be cost effective, at today's gold prices.
    - philipkglass 7y ago
      I see, you were challenging the "The only way" part of the statement. Yes, any metal alloy or hollow body with a density matching gold could be used to pass density based tests. The natural choice is the cheapest metal of sufficient density -- tungsten. Platinum was historically used to dilute gold by alloying before it became valuable in its own right and chemical tests improved. "Gone Platinum: Contraband and Chemistry in Eighteenth-Century Colombia" https://www.vianolavie.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2015/06/Gone-Platinum.pdf https://www.vianolavie.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2015/0...
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      Platinum being cheaper than gold is one of those random facts that makes the world seem seriously off-kilter to me these days. It used to be much more expensive.
    - qtplatypus 7y ago
      Would depleted uranium be cost effective?
      - microtherion 7y ago
        For some weird reason, uranium is not as dense as gold.
        qtplatypus 7y ago
        I did some research. While uranium atoms are heavier then gold atoms they are also bigger so they don’t pack as tightly.
javert 7y ago
I am really interested in learning how to validate that any gold I buy is legitimate. I didn't realize that was possible for "just a normal guy." Do you have more information about this? Like, is there a guide? Obviously the first thing to do would be to get the equipment you mention to detect tungsten. But what about the "if the cladding isn't sufficiently think" issue? How do you deal with that possibility? Would you have to drill into the gold, or something?
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >I am really interested in learning how to validate that any gold I buy is legitimate. I didn't realize that was possible for "just a normal guy." Do you have more information about this? Like, is there a guide? Nitric acid and 'touchstone' are an ok start, but if you have a larger specimen it could just be clad. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Touchstone_(assaying_tool) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Touchstone_(assaying_tool) You can buy that kinda stuff at sites like https://www.goldfeverprospecting.com/goteki.html https://www.goldfeverprospecting.com/goteki.html which have the black stone/touchstone, test needles, acid etc. You can also do electronic testing, this used the conductivity of the specimen to give you a (generally accurate) idea of what purity of gold you are dealing with, this is usually used for jewellery. It's alright if you are familiar with gold jewellery, have a kt stamping and just want to do a quick non-destructive test. You can do a specific gravity test via water displacement. You can do XRF testing (if you've ever watched Cody's Lab he has one of these handhelds they vary in price and quality). But if you really want to know for sure you have to do destructive testing like fire assay. If something is decently thick you'll need to drill it too, you'll even see this with silver once you start to get to the 100 troy ounce range sometimes.
  - javert 7y ago
    Thank you for taking the time to write this up! Yeah, Cody's Lab is great. Would buying gold coins as opposed to bars avoid this issue? I mean, I'd still want to test using the chemical and electric kits you mentioned. But is it safe to say that you can't hide tungsten inside a coin, and/or is there a foolproof way to detect that---without drilling it---since coins are thin? I really don't want to have to use a destructive test. Since this is a startup site, if the answer to my question about coins is negative, I wonder if there could be a market for gold that is shaped in such a way that it can be easily verified? I did run across an outfit selling tiny gold "squares" that you could break off and give to people, but can't find it now. So maybe the idea of gold that you can 100% verify at home has already been done, though I don't think that was spiel.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

microtherion 7y ago

> The only way to make passable fake gold bullion based on weight is to use tungsten clad with gold <hat scientist="mad"> Couldn't you, say, mix plutonium with a small amount of lead to dial in the weight you need? </hat>

philipkglass 7y ago
Metallic plutonium is far rarer and more tightly controlled than gold. There is no civilian market for it. Building a new plutonium separation-and-metallization facility for processing spent civil nuclear fuel is more expensive than a new gold mine. Plutonium is also easy to detect by its radioactivity.
- microtherion 7y ago
  Yes, I know all of that, was just asking why this would be detectible by weight. Picked plutonium for the lulz. It looks like osmium or platinum would be cost effective, at today's gold prices.
  - philipkglass 7y ago
    I see, you were challenging the "The only way" part of the statement. Yes, any metal alloy or hollow body with a density matching gold could be used to pass density based tests. The natural choice is the cheapest metal of sufficient density -- tungsten. Platinum was historically used to dilute gold by alloying before it became valuable in its own right and chemical tests improved. "Gone Platinum: Contraband and Chemistry in Eighteenth-Century Colombia" https://www.vianolavie.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2015/06/Gone-Platinum.pdf https://www.vianolavie.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2015/0...
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Platinum being cheaper than gold is one of those random facts that makes the world seem seriously off-kilter to me these days. It used to be much more expensive.
  - qtplatypus 7y ago
    Would depleted uranium be cost effective?
    - microtherion 7y ago
      For some weird reason, uranium is not as dense as gold.
      - qtplatypus 7y ago
        I did some research. While uranium atoms are heavier then gold atoms they are also bigger so they don’t pack as tightly.

javert 7y ago

I am really interested in learning how to validate that any gold I buy is legitimate. I didn't realize that was possible for "just a normal guy." Do you have more information about this? Like, is there a guide? Obviously the first thing to do would be to get the equipment you mention to detect tungsten. But what about the "if the cladding isn't sufficiently think" issue? How do you deal with that possibility? Would you have to drill into the gold, or something?

ryanmercer 7y ago
>I am really interested in learning how to validate that any gold I buy is legitimate. I didn't realize that was possible for "just a normal guy." Do you have more information about this? Like, is there a guide? Nitric acid and 'touchstone' are an ok start, but if you have a larger specimen it could just be clad. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Touchstone_(assaying_tool) https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Touchstone_(assaying_tool) You can buy that kinda stuff at sites like https://www.goldfeverprospecting.com/goteki.html https://www.goldfeverprospecting.com/goteki.html which have the black stone/touchstone, test needles, acid etc. You can also do electronic testing, this used the conductivity of the specimen to give you a (generally accurate) idea of what purity of gold you are dealing with, this is usually used for jewellery. It's alright if you are familiar with gold jewellery, have a kt stamping and just want to do a quick non-destructive test. You can do a specific gravity test via water displacement. You can do XRF testing (if you've ever watched Cody's Lab he has one of these handhelds they vary in price and quality). But if you really want to know for sure you have to do destructive testing like fire assay. If something is decently thick you'll need to drill it too, you'll even see this with silver once you start to get to the 100 troy ounce range sometimes.
- javert 7y ago
  Thank you for taking the time to write this up! Yeah, Cody's Lab is great. Would buying gold coins as opposed to bars avoid this issue? I mean, I'd still want to test using the chemical and electric kits you mentioned. But is it safe to say that you can't hide tungsten inside a coin, and/or is there a foolproof way to detect that---without drilling it---since coins are thin? I really don't want to have to use a destructive test. Since this is a startup site, if the answer to my question about coins is negative, I wonder if there could be a market for gold that is shaped in such a way that it can be easily verified? I did run across an outfit selling tiny gold "squares" that you could break off and give to people, but can't find it now. So maybe the idea of gold that you can 100% verify at home has already been done, though I don't think that was spiel.