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Forget whether he actually has any bitcoin—there's no way he (or anyone else) would just hand over 500 000 coins just because some local judge said so. That's t

by zelly 7y ago

Forget whether he actually has any bitcoin—there's no way he (or anyone else) would just hand over 500 000 coins just because some local judge said so. That's the whole point of bitcoin: It can't be confiscated. 500k BTC is enough to buy many lifetimes of freedom somewhere on the planet, even if you are wanted dead or alive in a first world country.

close04 7y ago
> It can't be confiscated It can't be confiscated if you manage to keep it completely hidden since the second it was mined... just like any other currency. In some ways Bitcoin is a lot more traceable than regular money, which can change hands as cash repeatedly with no traceability. If a court asks you to hand over something and you refuse you might as well spend time in prison until you have a change of heart. You can be compelled to produce the wallet and since transactions are traceable it's possible to calculate how much BTC was mined. Unless the BTC was mined into an obscure wallet that can't be traced back to this guy there's no easy (any?) way to hide how much he mined. Because this isn't about how much BTC the guy controls now (he could just transfer it all and claim there's none left) but how much was mined.
- im3w1l 7y ago
  Nah, even if you know someone controls the coins you can't confiscate them. You can put the person in jail, you can torture them - sure. But until they spit out the key you can't take the coins you know they have.
  - jtbayly 7y ago
    Right, but that's the whole point. You don't get to just live on the lam because you are rich. You have to actually pull it off. If you wait until they throw you in jail for contempt of court, it's too late. At that point your choices are comply or rot in jail. You can say that's a special feature of Bitcoin, but it isn't. It's the same with gold bullion or cash that you've hidden.
    - im3w1l 7y ago
      Many countries have maximum sentences. If a pile of money is big enough, someone might opt to spend 20 years in prison for it.
      - close04 7y ago
        In the US people are already serving indefinite prison sentences for being in contempt until they comply with a court order [0]. This is an open ended sentence. But the claim made above was that the whole point of BTC is that it cannot be confiscated. In reality it can be confiscated to the same extent to which any currency/valuable can be confiscated. You can't confiscate things you don't know about or can't get to and this is applicable to anything: money in hidden off shore accounts, art in an obscure warehouse, jewelry buried under a house, etc. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/23/francis-rawls-philadelphia-police-child-abuse-encryption https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/23/francis-r...
      - gamblor956 7y ago
        Contempt of court is considered an ongoing act, meaning that the person in contempt can be held indefinitely until they are no longer in contempt of court. See e.g., Chelsea Manning.
- zelly 7y ago
  The difference with btc is that the act of confiscation becomes extracting a passphrase stored in one's mind instead of moving physical atoms. Historically physical assets have been seized countless times.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
throwaway_law 7y ago
>That's the whole point of bitcoin: It can't be confiscated Sure, if you rob a bank and bury the money it can't be confiscated either. However, if you are ordered by a Court to turn over funds (bitcoin or otherwise) and you do not comply with the court order, you can be held in contempt of court and arrested until you comply with the court order. What good is "many lifetimes of freedom" if you only have 1 life and you're not free?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- zelly 7y ago
  First of all there is no debtor's prison in the USA. Even if he unequivocally had and owed 500k btc, he could just say no and go about his business. But even if this was a criminal case, the only way the government can get his coins would be: - torture - imprisonment and then finding his private keys written down in his house (or similar opsec fail) This is in contrast to bank/financial accounts (easily garnished by court order), physical paper currency (easily seized by a SWAT team), or physical gold (easily seized by a SWAT team). They can put you in jail, but they can't take your btc.
  - throwaway_law 7y ago
    >First of all there is no debtor's prison in the USA. Who said debtor's prison? There is a difference between going to jail for a debt and violating a court order, even if that court order is to turn over assets. Why don't you look up the penalties for violating a court order (HINT: civil or criminal the remedies are the same). In fact not only can violating a court order from a civil court result in imprisonment, additional criminal charges can occur for the violation itself, so you can be sitting in jail anyway and be hit with criminal charges. >he could just say no and go about his business. You think you can just ignore a court order without penalty? Why would anyone comply with a court order then? I'll tell you why, because they Courts have broad powers including imprisonment until you comply (even orders from civil cases). >They can put you in jail, but they can't take your btc. Yes, I think I acknowledged that, just as they can't take the cash you robbed from a bank and buried either (notwithstanding your point about how easy it is to seize). How is SWAT going to seize cash that they can't find?
simonh 7y ago
It depends what you consider freedom. To many, being restricted only to areas outside the reach of an international arrest warrant or extradition arrangement would be a form of incarceration.
duskwuff 7y ago
> 500k BTC is enough to buy many lifetimes of freedom somewhere on the planet That's debatable. How do you even go about liquidating that much cryptocurrency? Selling it all at once would crash the market; even signalling that such a large amount might be put on the market would probably have an adverse effect on prices.
- zelly 7y ago
  It doesn't take a full 5 billion USD to escape the country and avoid prosecution. It probably doesn't even take 5 million. When you have that much money, none of the normal rules apply. Really, having 5 billion in New York City versus, say, Ukraine isn't really that much of a difference.
aeternum 7y ago
Why does the judgement need to be paid in bitcoin? Why not put leins on Wright's property or salary in order to pay off the judgement.

by zelly 7y ago

close04 7y ago

> It can't be confiscated It can't be confiscated if you manage to keep it completely hidden since the second it was mined... just like any other currency. In some ways Bitcoin is a lot more traceable than regular money, which can change hands as cash repeatedly with no traceability. If a court asks you to hand over something and you refuse you might as well spend time in prison until you have a change of heart. You can be compelled to produce the wallet and since transactions are traceable it's possible to calculate how much BTC was mined. Unless the BTC was mined into an obscure wallet that can't be traced back to this guy there's no easy (any?) way to hide how much he mined. Because this isn't about how much BTC the guy controls now (he could just transfer it all and claim there's none left) but how much was mined.

im3w1l 7y ago
Nah, even if you know someone controls the coins you can't confiscate them. You can put the person in jail, you can torture them - sure. But until they spit out the key you can't take the coins you know they have.
- jtbayly 7y ago
  Right, but that's the whole point. You don't get to just live on the lam because you are rich. You have to actually pull it off. If you wait until they throw you in jail for contempt of court, it's too late. At that point your choices are comply or rot in jail. You can say that's a special feature of Bitcoin, but it isn't. It's the same with gold bullion or cash that you've hidden.
  - im3w1l 7y ago
    Many countries have maximum sentences. If a pile of money is big enough, someone might opt to spend 20 years in prison for it.
    - close04 7y ago
      In the US people are already serving indefinite prison sentences for being in contempt until they comply with a court order [0]. This is an open ended sentence. But the claim made above was that the whole point of BTC is that it cannot be confiscated. In reality it can be confiscated to the same extent to which any currency/valuable can be confiscated. You can't confiscate things you don't know about or can't get to and this is applicable to anything: money in hidden off shore accounts, art in an obscure warehouse, jewelry buried under a house, etc. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/23/francis-rawls-philadelphia-police-child-abuse-encryption https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/23/francis-r...
    - gamblor956 7y ago
      Contempt of court is considered an ongoing act, meaning that the person in contempt can be held indefinitely until they are no longer in contempt of court. See e.g., Chelsea Manning.
zelly 7y ago
The difference with btc is that the act of confiscation becomes extracting a passphrase stored in one's mind instead of moving physical atoms. Historically physical assets have been seized countless times.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

throwaway_law 7y ago

>That's the whole point of bitcoin: It can't be confiscated Sure, if you rob a bank and bury the money it can't be confiscated either. However, if you are ordered by a Court to turn over funds (bitcoin or otherwise) and you do not comply with the court order, you can be held in contempt of court and arrested until you comply with the court order. What good is "many lifetimes of freedom" if you only have 1 life and you're not free?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
zelly 7y ago
First of all there is no debtor's prison in the USA. Even if he unequivocally had and owed 500k btc, he could just say no and go about his business. But even if this was a criminal case, the only way the government can get his coins would be: - torture - imprisonment and then finding his private keys written down in his house (or similar opsec fail) This is in contrast to bank/financial accounts (easily garnished by court order), physical paper currency (easily seized by a SWAT team), or physical gold (easily seized by a SWAT team). They can put you in jail, but they can't take your btc.
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  >First of all there is no debtor's prison in the USA. Who said debtor's prison? There is a difference between going to jail for a debt and violating a court order, even if that court order is to turn over assets. Why don't you look up the penalties for violating a court order (HINT: civil or criminal the remedies are the same). In fact not only can violating a court order from a civil court result in imprisonment, additional criminal charges can occur for the violation itself, so you can be sitting in jail anyway and be hit with criminal charges. >he could just say no and go about his business. You think you can just ignore a court order without penalty? Why would anyone comply with a court order then? I'll tell you why, because they Courts have broad powers including imprisonment until you comply (even orders from civil cases). >They can put you in jail, but they can't take your btc. Yes, I think I acknowledged that, just as they can't take the cash you robbed from a bank and buried either (notwithstanding your point about how easy it is to seize). How is SWAT going to seize cash that they can't find?

simonh 7y ago

It depends what you consider freedom. To many, being restricted only to areas outside the reach of an international arrest warrant or extradition arrangement would be a form of incarceration.

duskwuff 7y ago

> 500k BTC is enough to buy many lifetimes of freedom somewhere on the planet That's debatable. How do you even go about liquidating that much cryptocurrency? Selling it all at once would crash the market; even signalling that such a large amount might be put on the market would probably have an adverse effect on prices.

zelly 7y ago
It doesn't take a full 5 billion USD to escape the country and avoid prosecution. It probably doesn't even take 5 million. When you have that much money, none of the normal rules apply. Really, having 5 billion in New York City versus, say, Ukraine isn't really that much of a difference.

aeternum 7y ago

Why does the judgement need to be paid in bitcoin? Why not put leins on Wright's property or salary in order to pay off the judgement.