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You have to understand that Chinese prefer security over freedom. They support this kind of measures since majority of them probably won't be bothered by it the

You have to understand that Chinese prefer security over freedom. They support this kind of measures since majority of them probably won't be bothered by it their whole lives, as their typical response: if you don't illegal things, what's to fear for. And the state media has been touting for years that China is the safest country on earth that "you can buy skewers at midnight", that America is the example of a failed society. They mostly likely are sincerely and proudly presenting this as a superiority over the tumultuous west.

varjag 7y ago
I don't know, hongkongers seem to prefer freedom.
- bitskits 7y ago
  Exactly. HongKongers dont consider themselves Chinese. https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/28/hongkongers-identifying-chinese-record-low-10-youth-proud-citizens-poll/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/28/hongkongers-identifyin...
- iiuytrty 7y ago
  Only the minority that are protesting.
  - NicoJuicy 7y ago
    "minority"
    - yyhhsj0521 7y ago
      This doesn't help the discussion. Also, anything less than half is a minority.
      - brianwawok 7y ago
        If a country is 33.33% of three different groups, are all 3 a minority?
        yyhhsj0521 7y ago
        I suppose so. Though it's much clearer when the matter is dichotomous, such as "going to protest"/"not going", and "GOP"/"Democratic" (I know, I know, but independent is not significant).
      - NicoJuicy 7y ago
        Not everyone participates, some are scared probably. The hongkongers are protesting, so in Hong Kong your minority is 100% of the residents. Your statement is deceptive
        yyhhsj0521 7y ago
        Are you saying that every Hong Kong resident would choose to protest if not scared?
  - heraclius 7y ago
    When asked, over 50% of Hong Kong people identified as “Hongkonger[s]”, even though various Chinese options were available.¹ Clearly then at least some non-protesters agree. 1. https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentity/poll/datatables.html https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentit...
  - AFascistWorld 7y ago
    Yeah, abject outcasts sponsored by black hands from America and the UK.
    - heraclius 7y ago
      As I noted in another comment, a majority of Hong Kong people did not identify themselves as “Chinese” when given the choice.⁰ It is rather implausible to claim that over three million Chinese people are “sponsored by black hands from America and the UK”. Moreover it is quite unlikely that the majority of them are “abject outcasts.” And, finally, as a Marxist, I should like to know in what sense you consider your remarks to be compatible with the compassion for “outcasts” that animated at the very least Marx: “we should not abandon Marxism-Leninism;”¹ “[a]ll Party members must…be firm in their commitment to…the Marxist view on development;”² “[w]e must adhere to Marxism.”³ 0. https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentity/poll/datatables.html https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentit... 1. XI Jinping, The Governance of China, p. 10 2. Ibid., p. 23 3. Ibid., p. 25
  - dleclere 7y ago
    At their height, about a half of Hong Kong's labour force (people aged over 15) hit the streets.
bsaul 7y ago
Not sure one can easily speak about 1 billion people, speaking different languages, having different religion, living in different climates, as « prefering security over freedom ». The chineese i’ve spoken to, that actually lived in china, first told you the official point of view, and then after the conversation kept going on, told you about things they didn’t like, then after some more time you realize all they want is leave china and come live in the west.
- AFascistWorld 7y ago
  Ask the ones you've talked with whether they dare to level with their own parents or relatives, most likely they will be scolded as traitors or even be shuned to avoid troubles. Yes, there will always be outliers, but in the case of China, where conformity is of utmost importance, they really are just absolute minorities in the 1.4B population. If you've been following the developments of HK protests, a key indicator is that almost all of these "passive dissents" of the CCP you described turned against HKers just like average Chinese, they are bashing HKers and lapping up the info the party gave them. Do these people love freedom or even democracy, yes, but they are also acting against it in the case of HK. This is the paradox, they love the "good aspects" of freedom and democracy but they also vehemently hate and reject the "bad ones" that inevitably come with it.
  - magicsmoke 7y ago
    It's the tradeoff between democracy and nationalism. I bet if you offered the typical mainlander the following choices. 1. Democracy + Developed country standard of living, but Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, Xinjiang, Tibet vote to become independent and do become independent countries. 2. Autocracy + Developing country standard of living, but mainland China unifies with Taiwan. Then most mainlanders would pick the second option. Due to historical reasons, any scenario that risks tarnishing the borders of the idealized unified China incurs a hyperallergic reaction.
mirimir 7y ago
The UK government probably wants this setup, no?
- pjc50 7y ago
  Already under proposal for the existing "ring of steel": https://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/interviews/new-ring-of-steel-proposed/ https://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/interviews/new-r... And selectively deployed at "public order" events: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/facial-recognition-technology-used-champions-10476768 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/facial-recognition-tec...
Barrin92 7y ago
>You have to understand that Chinese prefer security over freedom. Pretty much everyone prefers security over freedom in particular in the abscene of security, but also just in general. Take a look at countries that have freedom written on their flags and then count the CCTV cameras in London or the number of three letter agencies in the US. The only difference is the fact that in China the role of the state in exercising this surveillance is out in the open and endorsed as a means of organising society and everywhere else it happens through the backdoor.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
borumpilot 7y ago
> You have to understand that Chinese prefer security over freedom. Or, as Mike Tyson put it: everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.

varjag 7y ago

I don't know, hongkongers seem to prefer freedom.

bitskits 7y ago
Exactly. HongKongers dont consider themselves Chinese. https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/28/hongkongers-identifying-chinese-record-low-10-youth-proud-citizens-poll/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/28/hongkongers-identifyin...
iiuytrty 7y ago
Only the minority that are protesting.
- NicoJuicy 7y ago
  "minority"
  - yyhhsj0521 7y ago
    This doesn't help the discussion. Also, anything less than half is a minority.
    - brianwawok 7y ago
      If a country is 33.33% of three different groups, are all 3 a minority?
      - yyhhsj0521 7y ago
        I suppose so. Though it's much clearer when the matter is dichotomous, such as "going to protest"/"not going", and "GOP"/"Democratic" (I know, I know, but independent is not significant).
    - NicoJuicy 7y ago
      Not everyone participates, some are scared probably. The hongkongers are protesting, so in Hong Kong your minority is 100% of the residents. Your statement is deceptive
      - yyhhsj0521 7y ago
        Are you saying that every Hong Kong resident would choose to protest if not scared?
- heraclius 7y ago
  When asked, over 50% of Hong Kong people identified as “Hongkonger[s]”, even though various Chinese options were available.¹ Clearly then at least some non-protesters agree. 1. https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentity/poll/datatables.html https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentit...
- AFascistWorld 7y ago
  Yeah, abject outcasts sponsored by black hands from America and the UK.
  - heraclius 7y ago
    As I noted in another comment, a majority of Hong Kong people did not identify themselves as “Chinese” when given the choice.⁰ It is rather implausible to claim that over three million Chinese people are “sponsored by black hands from America and the UK”. Moreover it is quite unlikely that the majority of them are “abject outcasts.” And, finally, as a Marxist, I should like to know in what sense you consider your remarks to be compatible with the compassion for “outcasts” that animated at the very least Marx: “we should not abandon Marxism-Leninism;”¹ “[a]ll Party members must…be firm in their commitment to…the Marxist view on development;”² “[w]e must adhere to Marxism.”³ 0. https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentity/poll/datatables.html https://www.hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentit... 1. XI Jinping, The Governance of China, p. 10 2. Ibid., p. 23 3. Ibid., p. 25
- dleclere 7y ago
  At their height, about a half of Hong Kong's labour force (people aged over 15) hit the streets.

bsaul 7y ago

Not sure one can easily speak about 1 billion people, speaking different languages, having different religion, living in different climates, as « prefering security over freedom ». The chineese i’ve spoken to, that actually lived in china, first told you the official point of view, and then after the conversation kept going on, told you about things they didn’t like, then after some more time you realize all they want is leave china and come live in the west.

AFascistWorld 7y ago
Ask the ones you've talked with whether they dare to level with their own parents or relatives, most likely they will be scolded as traitors or even be shuned to avoid troubles. Yes, there will always be outliers, but in the case of China, where conformity is of utmost importance, they really are just absolute minorities in the 1.4B population. If you've been following the developments of HK protests, a key indicator is that almost all of these "passive dissents" of the CCP you described turned against HKers just like average Chinese, they are bashing HKers and lapping up the info the party gave them. Do these people love freedom or even democracy, yes, but they are also acting against it in the case of HK. This is the paradox, they love the "good aspects" of freedom and democracy but they also vehemently hate and reject the "bad ones" that inevitably come with it.
- magicsmoke 7y ago
  It's the tradeoff between democracy and nationalism. I bet if you offered the typical mainlander the following choices. 1. Democracy + Developed country standard of living, but Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, Xinjiang, Tibet vote to become independent and do become independent countries. 2. Autocracy + Developing country standard of living, but mainland China unifies with Taiwan. Then most mainlanders would pick the second option. Due to historical reasons, any scenario that risks tarnishing the borders of the idealized unified China incurs a hyperallergic reaction.

mirimir 7y ago

The UK government probably wants this setup, no?

pjc50 7y ago
Already under proposal for the existing "ring of steel": https://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/interviews/new-ring-of-steel-proposed/ https://www.professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/interviews/new-r... And selectively deployed at "public order" events: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/facial-recognition-technology-used-champions-10476768 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/facial-recognition-tec...

Barrin92 7y ago

>You have to understand that Chinese prefer security over freedom. Pretty much everyone prefers security over freedom in particular in the abscene of security, but also just in general. Take a look at countries that have freedom written on their flags and then count the CCTV cameras in London or the number of three letter agencies in the US. The only difference is the fact that in China the role of the state in exercising this surveillance is out in the open and endorsed as a means of organising society and everywhere else it happens through the backdoor.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

borumpilot 7y ago

> You have to understand that Chinese prefer security over freedom. Or, as Mike Tyson put it: everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.