5 ms·

> I live in a poor country which is poor mostly because the established economic powers are able to strangle new centers of wealth creation in the cradle, using

by javert 7y ago

> I live in a poor country which is poor mostly because the established economic powers are able to strangle new centers of wealth creation in the cradle, using the government and laws. Don't let that happen in your country. Is there any country in the world that still prioritizes freedom over having a massive regulatory state? It would surprise me.

kragen 7y ago
Governments do not prioritize the freedom of their subjects; it's contrary to the incentives of everyone in the government. People win freedom by limiting the powers governments have over them.
- psychometry 7y ago
  Get out of here with the libertarian parroting. American workers didn't gain workplace protections by limiting government powers.
  - kragen 7y ago
    The history of the US labor movement is not a history of American workers struggling hand in hand with the government against large employers like Peabody, GM, and Pullman. Rather, it is a history of American workers struggling against large employers who were backed by the government: police, imprisonment, and in some cases even military actions were used against strikers. The Post Office helped out Pullman by putting a mail parcel on each Pullman car so that striking would become a federal crime. American workers gained workplace protections through unions and the threat of a communist revolution, which forced the government to relinquish the use of its coercive powers against strikers. Only later did (limited) workplace protections become law. When I lived in the US, I thought like you do. Now I've seen the other side of the coin.
    - xster 7y ago
      > American workers gained workplace protections through unions and the threat of a communist revolution, which forced the government to relinquish the use of its coercive powers against strikers And gun battles[1][2][3][4][5]. But now we just commemorate by buying mattress on sale on Labor Days. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrin_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrin_massacre
  - dang 7y ago
    Hey, can you please not attack others or call names in arguments on HN? We're trying for a bit better than internet default here. Also, please don't take HN threads further into generic ideological battle. That's always tedious and usually nasty. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: looks like we've had to ask you this a bunch of times before. Continuing to violate the site guidelines will get your account banned, so would you mind reviewing them and using HN as intended? We'd be grateful.
- javert 7y ago
  I know, but that doesn't answer my question. I'm not asking which government prioritizes freedom. I'm asking which country prioritizes freedom. edit: also, could you explain why philosophy caused you to move around the world? You mention this on your web page ;)
  - kragen 7y ago
    Oh, that's a long story.
- jonathankoren 7y ago
  This is just an absurd statement. Do you really think that somone is sitting in some cubical thinking, “Geez, how can I regulate purchase of ballpoint pens?” or anything else? That’s not how laws and regulations come about. I really wish someone would point to an example where any “freedom stealing” law in a democracy was the came from a bureaucrat rather than outside lobbyists. Because the way this common claptrap implies that somewhere there’s a big board where there’s a monthly quota on new regulations and laws, or there’s some other personal incentive.
  - esoterica 7y ago
    > This is just an absurd statement. It's par for the course for internet libertarianism. They have a thirteen year old's YA-dystopian-fiction-novel understanding of how society works.
    - dang 7y ago
      Would you please not post name-calling comments or personal attacks (like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20809349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20809349 and, worse, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20709280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20709280) to HN? We ban accounts that break the site guidelines like that. If you'd review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post only in the intended spirit or not at all, we'd be grateful.
      - kragen 7y ago
        While obviously I don't agree with the comment you're responding to (cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20813149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20813149), I wanted to ask you if there's a way I could have phrased the comment it was responding to to be less inflammatory. I didn't anticipate that it would provoke such responses, and I wonder if there's a way to avoid it other than just silence.
        nkurz 7y ago
walshemj 7y ago
Compared to some countries the USA does ask any Engineer from India about relieving letters and bonds.
- javert 7y ago
  > relieving letters and bonds I don't know what a relieving letter is and I only know of a bond as a debt instrument. Can you explain?
  - walshemj 7y ago
    I might be simplifying it but: A reliving Letter is document that your employer must (effectively) provide so you can resign and work for some one else, they can hold you hostage. Bond in this term refers to "An employment bond contains a clause which requires the employee to serve the employer compulsorily for a specific period of time or else refund the amount specified as bond value." Basically an indentured servant. A friend of mine who was head of UNI described it as "horrific". UNI is a global union so they also work with textile workers in poor countries so describing working practices for professionals in India as "horrific" shows how bad it is.
    - javert 7y ago
      OK, thanks, this is interesting. I'm learning something. What is the enforcement mechanism for the relieving letter? Like, what stops someone from getting a new job without having a relieving letter from the prior employer? Is this common in India for engineers? You said the US does ask for relieving letters but I think from context you mean "at least the US doesn't ask for relieving letters." Right?
    - pinkfoot 7y ago
      > Basically an indentured servant … or a young graduate paying back a university bursary. Not always evil.
      - walshemj 7y ago

by javert 7y ago

kragen 7y ago

Governments do not prioritize the freedom of their subjects; it's contrary to the incentives of everyone in the government. People win freedom by limiting the powers governments have over them.

psychometry 7y ago
Get out of here with the libertarian parroting. American workers didn't gain workplace protections by limiting government powers.
- kragen 7y ago
  The history of the US labor movement is not a history of American workers struggling hand in hand with the government against large employers like Peabody, GM, and Pullman. Rather, it is a history of American workers struggling against large employers who were backed by the government: police, imprisonment, and in some cases even military actions were used against strikers. The Post Office helped out Pullman by putting a mail parcel on each Pullman car so that striking would become a federal crime. American workers gained workplace protections through unions and the threat of a communist revolution, which forced the government to relinquish the use of its coercive powers against strikers. Only later did (limited) workplace protections become law. When I lived in the US, I thought like you do. Now I've seen the other side of the coin.
  - xster 7y ago
    > American workers gained workplace protections through unions and the threat of a communist revolution, which forced the government to relinquish the use of its coercive powers against strikers And gun battles[1][2][3][4][5]. But now we just commemorate by buying mattress on sale on Labor Days. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrin_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrin_massacre
- dang 7y ago
  Hey, can you please not attack others or call names in arguments on HN? We're trying for a bit better than internet default here. Also, please don't take HN threads further into generic ideological battle. That's always tedious and usually nasty. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: looks like we've had to ask you this a bunch of times before. Continuing to violate the site guidelines will get your account banned, so would you mind reviewing them and using HN as intended? We'd be grateful.
javert 7y ago
I know, but that doesn't answer my question. I'm not asking which government prioritizes freedom. I'm asking which country prioritizes freedom. edit: also, could you explain why philosophy caused you to move around the world? You mention this on your web page ;)
- kragen 7y ago
  Oh, that's a long story.
jonathankoren 7y ago
This is just an absurd statement. Do you really think that somone is sitting in some cubical thinking, “Geez, how can I regulate purchase of ballpoint pens?” or anything else? That’s not how laws and regulations come about. I really wish someone would point to an example where any “freedom stealing” law in a democracy was the came from a bureaucrat rather than outside lobbyists. Because the way this common claptrap implies that somewhere there’s a big board where there’s a monthly quota on new regulations and laws, or there’s some other personal incentive.
- esoterica 7y ago
  > This is just an absurd statement. It's par for the course for internet libertarianism. They have a thirteen year old's YA-dystopian-fiction-novel understanding of how society works.
  - dang 7y ago
    Would you please not post name-calling comments or personal attacks (like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20809349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20809349 and, worse, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20709280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20709280) to HN? We ban accounts that break the site guidelines like that. If you'd review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post only in the intended spirit or not at all, we'd be grateful.
    - kragen 7y ago
      While obviously I don't agree with the comment you're responding to (cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20813149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20813149), I wanted to ask you if there's a way I could have phrased the comment it was responding to to be less inflammatory. I didn't anticipate that it would provoke such responses, and I wonder if there's a way to avoid it other than just silence.
      - nkurz 7y ago

walshemj 7y ago

Compared to some countries the USA does ask any Engineer from India about relieving letters and bonds.

javert 7y ago
> relieving letters and bonds I don't know what a relieving letter is and I only know of a bond as a debt instrument. Can you explain?
- walshemj 7y ago
  I might be simplifying it but: A reliving Letter is document that your employer must (effectively) provide so you can resign and work for some one else, they can hold you hostage. Bond in this term refers to "An employment bond contains a clause which requires the employee to serve the employer compulsorily for a specific period of time or else refund the amount specified as bond value." Basically an indentured servant. A friend of mine who was head of UNI described it as "horrific". UNI is a global union so they also work with textile workers in poor countries so describing working practices for professionals in India as "horrific" shows how bad it is.
  - javert 7y ago
    OK, thanks, this is interesting. I'm learning something. What is the enforcement mechanism for the relieving letter? Like, what stops someone from getting a new job without having a relieving letter from the prior employer? Is this common in India for engineers? You said the US does ask for relieving letters but I think from context you mean "at least the US doesn't ask for relieving letters." Right?
  - pinkfoot 7y ago
    > Basically an indentured servant … or a young graduate paying back a university bursary. Not always evil.
    - walshemj 7y ago