4 ms·

If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. If those places are dyin

If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. If those places are dying out, it's probably best to let them turn into ghost towns because they have succumbed to corruption as a way of life.

duxup 7y ago
I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.
- motohagiography 7y ago
  If that municipal or county government is operated by unionized public workers, including police, then the revenue collection is going primarily to pay that union, who in turn fund politicians who continue their revenue collection policies to pay their members. It's capture, so in effect, kleptocracy.
  - duxup 7y ago
    Under your description all government that pays someone(s) would qualify. That's not what kleptocracy means. >is going primarily to pay that union, I don't think that is accurate.
    - mywittyname 7y ago
      The article even specifies that several towns earmark fine revenue specifically and exclusively for use by the police department: > Georgia, for example, levies about a dozen fees, and they’re used to pay for a state police motorcycle unit, a brain and spinal injury trust fund, and a police supplemental retirement fund. And the other cases where the money for fines paid in cash just disappeared: > A Louisiana state audit last year found that some cash payments for citations in Fenton were never deposited in the village’s bank account and alleged improper compensation to city officials. These are just the direct ways in which revenue from fines are funneled into the pocketbooks of those writing the citations. It doesn't even look into the more tradition mechanics of kleptocrats, where government funds are directly funneled to businesses owned by politicians.
      - duxup 7y ago
        I don't think given examples of questionable behavior means it's all "kleptocracy". The article does a good job describing the tax policies that influence heavy reliance on fines and etc, that's not kleptocracy, that's just bad policy with bad results.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  Let's call it something else then: road piracy.
  - ericd 7y ago
    Could start calling them highwaymen.
- LanceH 7y ago
  The first thing revenue collection funds is revenue collection. Then possibly more revenue collection. Asset forfeiture efforts dry up substantially when the money is returned to the general fund instead of the capturing agencies. Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people.
  - duxup 7y ago
    "Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people." Arguably that idea is what lead to the current situation in some cases.... As the article notes state legislatures cut local government funding, they limit how they can gather funds, probabbly under the idea that they're returning revenue to the people ... so the local government gathers funds the only way they can find it. And here we are.
    - JackFr 7y ago
      > so the local government gathers funds the only way they can find it. Because the local government is a bureaucracy, and the first motivation of a bureaucracy is the same as with any organism, self-preservation. Rather than elections for sheriff and alderman, etc. there should be referenda every couple of years to dissolve the jurisdiction.
      - duxup 7y ago
        They could elect people who can choose to do as you describe. Perhaps the locals don't want to?
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  These towns don't provide many services to the residents (this is covered in TFA). They're basically just paying their own salaries with the money.
- mikeash 7y ago
  The folks in charge get paid by the government and the amount the government is able to pay is highly dependent on the amount of funding it gets.
  - duxup 7y ago
    I feel like that standard would quickly result in any government that pays anyone called a kleptocracy.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      Why?
      - duxup 7y ago
        >The folks in charge get paid by the government and the amount the government is able to pay is highly dependent on the amount of funding it gets. Doesn't that apply to all government where someone is paid?
        mikeash 7y ago
        > If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. Context!
        duxup 7y ago
        Isn't any fine revenue collection?
        mikeash 7y ago
        Yes, but not all fines are for minor violations, and not all fines are a pretext for revenue collection.
  - JackFr 7y ago
ocschwar 7y ago
> If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. Fancy word, there, son. 'round here we call it Dixie.

duxup 7y ago

I think Kleptocracy would only apply if the folks in charge are funneling funds to themselves. If it is just what funds the government, that isn't a kleptocracy. Bad policy maybe, but not kleptocracy.

motohagiography 7y ago
If that municipal or county government is operated by unionized public workers, including police, then the revenue collection is going primarily to pay that union, who in turn fund politicians who continue their revenue collection policies to pay their members. It's capture, so in effect, kleptocracy.
- duxup 7y ago
  Under your description all government that pays someone(s) would qualify. That's not what kleptocracy means. >is going primarily to pay that union, I don't think that is accurate.
  - mywittyname 7y ago
    The article even specifies that several towns earmark fine revenue specifically and exclusively for use by the police department: > Georgia, for example, levies about a dozen fees, and they’re used to pay for a state police motorcycle unit, a brain and spinal injury trust fund, and a police supplemental retirement fund. And the other cases where the money for fines paid in cash just disappeared: > A Louisiana state audit last year found that some cash payments for citations in Fenton were never deposited in the village’s bank account and alleged improper compensation to city officials. These are just the direct ways in which revenue from fines are funneled into the pocketbooks of those writing the citations. It doesn't even look into the more tradition mechanics of kleptocrats, where government funds are directly funneled to businesses owned by politicians.
    - duxup 7y ago
      I don't think given examples of questionable behavior means it's all "kleptocracy". The article does a good job describing the tax policies that influence heavy reliance on fines and etc, that's not kleptocracy, that's just bad policy with bad results.
HarryHirsch 7y ago
Let's call it something else then: road piracy.
- ericd 7y ago
  Could start calling them highwaymen.
LanceH 7y ago
The first thing revenue collection funds is revenue collection. Then possibly more revenue collection. Asset forfeiture efforts dry up substantially when the money is returned to the general fund instead of the capturing agencies. Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people.
- duxup 7y ago
  "Just imagine if they returned the revenue to the people." Arguably that idea is what lead to the current situation in some cases.... As the article notes state legislatures cut local government funding, they limit how they can gather funds, probabbly under the idea that they're returning revenue to the people ... so the local government gathers funds the only way they can find it. And here we are.
  - JackFr 7y ago
    > so the local government gathers funds the only way they can find it. Because the local government is a bureaucracy, and the first motivation of a bureaucracy is the same as with any organism, self-preservation. Rather than elections for sheriff and alderman, etc. there should be referenda every couple of years to dissolve the jurisdiction.
    - duxup 7y ago
      They could elect people who can choose to do as you describe. Perhaps the locals don't want to?
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
These towns don't provide many services to the residents (this is covered in TFA). They're basically just paying their own salaries with the money.
mikeash 7y ago
The folks in charge get paid by the government and the amount the government is able to pay is highly dependent on the amount of funding it gets.
- duxup 7y ago
  I feel like that standard would quickly result in any government that pays anyone called a kleptocracy.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    Why?
    - duxup 7y ago
      >The folks in charge get paid by the government and the amount the government is able to pay is highly dependent on the amount of funding it gets. Doesn't that apply to all government where someone is paid?
      - mikeash 7y ago
        > If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. Context!
        duxup 7y ago
        Isn't any fine revenue collection?
        mikeash 7y ago
        Yes, but not all fines are for minor violations, and not all fines are a pretext for revenue collection.
- JackFr 7y ago

ocschwar 7y ago

> If they are going to use minor violations of the law as a pretext for revenue collection, they should call it what it is: kleptocracy. Fancy word, there, son. 'round here we call it Dixie.