8 ms·

Let's be honest. Palantir's business model is mass surveillance of people (including, especially, US citizens). They allow many government agencies to circumven

Let's be honest. Palantir's business model is mass surveillance of people (including, especially, US citizens). They allow many government agencies to circumvent the legal procedures required to access government databases by instead using theirs. If you support that, more power to you. Be honest about what you're supporting though. This is not just about ICE. This is not the same as the advertiser tracking.

ng12 7y ago
Palantir is much closer to a consulting agency (think SAP or IBM) than anything like that.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- somethingtosay 7y ago
  That's a very kind way to characterize their work. Regardless, they are in the mass surveillance business. Some of their product manuals are out there to read. Edit: I personally think calling them just a 'consulting' company is a silly way to obscure the things on which they consult.
  - ng12 7y ago
    They're in the data analysis business. Your government is in the mass surveillance business. If ICE fed the data into Tableau instead would that be any different?
    - somethingtosay 7y ago
      This is not an accurate comparison you're making and I think you know that. Palantir designs products specifically for mass tracking of people. Tableau does not.
      - ng12 7y ago
        Could you specify the things Palantir does that Tableu and other data analysis tools do not?
        somethingtosay 7y ago
        I said it already. They make software specifically for tracking populations. Their user manuals were leaked by vice recently. You can look it up. Trying to equate the software described in those manuals, and what we know of their other contracts and products with Tableau is nonsense.
        ng12 7y ago
        > They make software specifically for tracking population They make software for modeling objects. A popular object to model is a person. As technologists we should be a little more immune to the FUD spread by Vice et al.
        somethingtosay 7y ago
        A gas chamber is just a room for dispersing particles very finely. See I can do it too.
        ng12 7y ago
        That is _exactly_ my point. Using Tableu to track immigrants is really not much different from using Palantir to track them.
        somethingtosay 7y ago
        You're point is either extremely naive or willfully ignorant.
        ng12 7y ago
- mdorazio 7y ago
  Could you explain that? I, and I think a lot of HN readers, are strongly of the impression that Palantir sells a platform and toolkit for mass data analysis specifically meant for human tracking across large government datasets. I understand that as with any large-scale implementation, a good portion of their actual project dollars will come from billable hours to get it running and keep it running, but they're certainly not run like an actual consulting company. Also, neither SAP nor IBM are consulting companies. SAP is an ERP provider and IBM is a cloud-based solution provider and outsourcing company. Most people would say consulting companies are those like Accenture, Deloitte, McKinsey, BCG, etc.
  - traderjane 7y ago
    I think consulting in tech sometimes means custom software solution with a lot of engineers on loan, often deployed to the customer's site. But despite Palantir's attempts to expand into the private sector, I do believe their government side has been more successful, so I think it's fair to say that Palantir is a government contractor first and foremost.
  - okmokmz 7y ago
    >I, and I think a lot of HN readers, are strongly of the impression that Palantir sells a platform and toolkit for mass data analysis specifically meant for human tracking across large government datasets They do https://southfront.org/palantirs-user-guide-mass-surveillance-made-simple/ https://southfront.org/palantirs-user-guide-mass-surveillanc... https://theintercept.com/2017/02/22/how-peter-thiels-palantir-helped-the-nsa-spy-on-the-whole-world/ https://theintercept.com/2017/02/22/how-peter-thiels-palanti... https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-palantir-peter-thiel/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-palantir-peter-thiel... https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/07/palantirs_surve.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/07/palantirs_sur... https://mijente.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Mijente-The-War-Against-Immigrants_-Trumps-Tech-Tools-Powered-by-Palantir_.pdf https://mijente.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Mijente-The-W...
    - ozymandias12 7y ago
      They do! But they don't have the data, these are tools, just like a browser access the web, Palantir solutions access gov data and link to who knows what datasets, but on paper, they ain't no NSA.
- LunaSea 7y ago
  If a company is building the tools for a surveillance agency (which we know they are), you can't simply wave around the world "consulting" because they are not the end user of said tools to erase all responsibility. If a gun manufacturer sells weapons to a dictatorship, even if there is no embargo and the deal is legal, you can absolutely judge the scummy ethics of the company in question.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- tsss 7y ago
  Yes and let me remind you that the German branch of IBM supplied the punch card computers and programs for identifying jews in census data in the third reich which enabled the holocaust. Palantir is doing exactly the same but with much more powerful tools. It is only a matter of time until some government will use their software to commit genocide, not to mention prosecution of political dissidents which is already happening. Of course Palantir will profit off this and get away with it just like IBM did. I get downvoted for this every time but someone has to say it. It's the truth whether you like it or not.
  - ng12 7y ago
    Punchcards weren't the problem, Nazis were the problem. Should we be focused on ensuring that every data analysis vendor, worldwide, refuses to sell to our government or should we be focused on ensuring our government doesn't do bad things? The former is sisyphean, the latter is the most important thing we as a society can do.
    - tsss 7y ago
      This software is a tool that is very easy to abuse, in fact I would go so far to say that its primary purpose is to be abused. Like a gun it has its place in society, but that doesn't absolve you from responsibility when you sell guns to a known dictator. IBM is definitely to blame when they sold their punchcard computers to nazi Germany, knowing that they would be used for genocide (which was not only common knowledge, they even wrote the damn programs!). You are conflating two separate issues here: The morality of Palantir and their employees and the practicality of stopping abuse. To get back to the weapons analogy: We may not be able to stop everyone from selling weapons to North Korea but we can surely condemn those who do, wouldn't you agree? > Punchcards weren't the problem, Nazis were the problem Nazis are inevitable. Even if you assume that the government actually acquired this software with good intent, you have to anticipate that someone will abuse it. Maybe not today but tomorrow.
      - ng12 7y ago
        > The morality of Palantir and their employees If the point you're making is that people who work for Palantir are morally akin to people working for the organizers of the Holocaust we'll have to agree to disagree.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

ng12 7y ago

Palantir is much closer to a consulting agency (think SAP or IBM) than anything like that.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
somethingtosay 7y ago
That's a very kind way to characterize their work. Regardless, they are in the mass surveillance business. Some of their product manuals are out there to read. Edit: I personally think calling them just a 'consulting' company is a silly way to obscure the things on which they consult.
- ng12 7y ago
  They're in the data analysis business. Your government is in the mass surveillance business. If ICE fed the data into Tableau instead would that be any different?
  - somethingtosay 7y ago
    This is not an accurate comparison you're making and I think you know that. Palantir designs products specifically for mass tracking of people. Tableau does not.
    - ng12 7y ago
      Could you specify the things Palantir does that Tableu and other data analysis tools do not?
      - somethingtosay 7y ago
        I said it already. They make software specifically for tracking populations. Their user manuals were leaked by vice recently. You can look it up. Trying to equate the software described in those manuals, and what we know of their other contracts and products with Tableau is nonsense.
        ng12 7y ago
        > They make software specifically for tracking population They make software for modeling objects. A popular object to model is a person. As technologists we should be a little more immune to the FUD spread by Vice et al.
        somethingtosay 7y ago
        A gas chamber is just a room for dispersing particles very finely. See I can do it too.
        ng12 7y ago
        That is _exactly_ my point. Using Tableu to track immigrants is really not much different from using Palantir to track them.
        somethingtosay 7y ago
        You're point is either extremely naive or willfully ignorant.
        ng12 7y ago
mdorazio 7y ago
Could you explain that? I, and I think a lot of HN readers, are strongly of the impression that Palantir sells a platform and toolkit for mass data analysis specifically meant for human tracking across large government datasets. I understand that as with any large-scale implementation, a good portion of their actual project dollars will come from billable hours to get it running and keep it running, but they're certainly not run like an actual consulting company. Also, neither SAP nor IBM are consulting companies. SAP is an ERP provider and IBM is a cloud-based solution provider and outsourcing company. Most people would say consulting companies are those like Accenture, Deloitte, McKinsey, BCG, etc.
- traderjane 7y ago
  I think consulting in tech sometimes means custom software solution with a lot of engineers on loan, often deployed to the customer's site. But despite Palantir's attempts to expand into the private sector, I do believe their government side has been more successful, so I think it's fair to say that Palantir is a government contractor first and foremost.
- okmokmz 7y ago
  >I, and I think a lot of HN readers, are strongly of the impression that Palantir sells a platform and toolkit for mass data analysis specifically meant for human tracking across large government datasets They do https://southfront.org/palantirs-user-guide-mass-surveillance-made-simple/ https://southfront.org/palantirs-user-guide-mass-surveillanc... https://theintercept.com/2017/02/22/how-peter-thiels-palantir-helped-the-nsa-spy-on-the-whole-world/ https://theintercept.com/2017/02/22/how-peter-thiels-palanti... https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-palantir-peter-thiel/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-palantir-peter-thiel... https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/07/palantirs_surve.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/07/palantirs_sur... https://mijente.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Mijente-The-War-Against-Immigrants_-Trumps-Tech-Tools-Powered-by-Palantir_.pdf https://mijente.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Mijente-The-W...
  - ozymandias12 7y ago
    They do! But they don't have the data, these are tools, just like a browser access the web, Palantir solutions access gov data and link to who knows what datasets, but on paper, they ain't no NSA.
LunaSea 7y ago
If a company is building the tools for a surveillance agency (which we know they are), you can't simply wave around the world "consulting" because they are not the end user of said tools to erase all responsibility. If a gun manufacturer sells weapons to a dictatorship, even if there is no embargo and the deal is legal, you can absolutely judge the scummy ethics of the company in question.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
tsss 7y ago
Yes and let me remind you that the German branch of IBM supplied the punch card computers and programs for identifying jews in census data in the third reich which enabled the holocaust. Palantir is doing exactly the same but with much more powerful tools. It is only a matter of time until some government will use their software to commit genocide, not to mention prosecution of political dissidents which is already happening. Of course Palantir will profit off this and get away with it just like IBM did. I get downvoted for this every time but someone has to say it. It's the truth whether you like it or not.
- ng12 7y ago
  Punchcards weren't the problem, Nazis were the problem. Should we be focused on ensuring that every data analysis vendor, worldwide, refuses to sell to our government or should we be focused on ensuring our government doesn't do bad things? The former is sisyphean, the latter is the most important thing we as a society can do.
  - tsss 7y ago
    This software is a tool that is very easy to abuse, in fact I would go so far to say that its primary purpose is to be abused. Like a gun it has its place in society, but that doesn't absolve you from responsibility when you sell guns to a known dictator. IBM is definitely to blame when they sold their punchcard computers to nazi Germany, knowing that they would be used for genocide (which was not only common knowledge, they even wrote the damn programs!). You are conflating two separate issues here: The morality of Palantir and their employees and the practicality of stopping abuse. To get back to the weapons analogy: We may not be able to stop everyone from selling weapons to North Korea but we can surely condemn those who do, wouldn't you agree? > Punchcards weren't the problem, Nazis were the problem Nazis are inevitable. Even if you assume that the government actually acquired this software with good intent, you have to anticipate that someone will abuse it. Maybe not today but tomorrow.
    - ng12 7y ago
      > The morality of Palantir and their employees If the point you're making is that people who work for Palantir are morally akin to people working for the organizers of the Holocaust we'll have to agree to disagree.
deleted 7y ago
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