6 ms·

Some scientists/doctors love using cholesterol because its easy to measure. But it's still mostly useless. I wonder if its mostly useless here. Oh look it is.

Some scientists/doctors love using cholesterol because its easy to measure. But it's still mostly useless. I wonder if its mostly useless here. Oh look it is. From the article: > Comparing the cholesterol and survival rates of the burger-eating crows with those of nearby crows who were weren’t supplemented with fast food, the team found that cholesterol levels did not have a detectable effect on the birds’ survival. Meanwhile, in a 2015 survey by Credit Suisse Foundation found 54% of docs falsely believed eating cholesterol-rich food raises blood levels of cholesterol and damages the heart. In the words of the survey, "This is a clear example of the level of misinformation that exists among doctors." https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us-news/en/articles/news-and-expertise/fat-the-new-health-paradigm-201509.html https://www.credit-suisse.com/about-us-news/en/articles/news... Why won't this dumb meme die?

hanniabu 7y ago
I don't get what you're upset about. The title doesn't infer that cholesterol is causing death and they state int he article that they aren't related.
- gravy 7y ago
  Then why mention high cholesterol at all?
- losteric 7y ago
  Seems more like a tangential complaint about general societal ignorance of that fact... and the title seems to be phrased as clickbait for people that believe in the cholesterol boogieman.
- latexr 7y ago
  The title of the article says “this happens”, but then body continues with “but it looks like it doesn’t matter”. It’s clickbait.
ThrowawayR2 7y ago
I don't think this article really says anything for or against that. The article did note that eating the burgers did raise the crows' cholesterol levels and also that "Crows, “which can live more than 15 years in the wild, might develop disease later in life,” but this needs further research, Townsend says."
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
I don't understand - what is the dumb meme? The link of high cholesterol to heart disease seems to be very well supported by numerous studies, and so are the benefits of reducing high LDL with diet or medication (statins). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol#Hypercholesterolemia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol#Hypercholesterolem... According to the lipid hypothesis, elevated levels of cholesterol in the blood lead to atherosclerosis which may increase the risk of heart attack, stroke, and peripheral vascular disease. Since higher blood LDL – especially higher LDL concentrations and smaller LDL particle size – contributes to this process more than the cholesterol content of the HDL particles,[68] LDL particles are often termed "bad cholesterol". High concentrations of functional HDL, which can remove cholesterol from cells and atheromas, offer protection and are commonly referred to as "good cholesterol". These balances are mostly genetically determined, but can be changed by body composition, medications, diet,[69] and other factors.[70] A 2007 study demonstrated that blood total cholesterol levels have an exponential effect on cardiovascular and total mortality, with the association more pronounced in younger subjects. Because cardiovascular disease is relatively rare in the younger population, the impact of high cholesterol on health is larger in older people.[71] Elevated levels of the lipoprotein fractions, LDL, IDL and VLDL, rather than the total cholesterol level, correlate with the extent and progress of atherosclerosis.[72] Conversely, the total cholesterol can be within normal limits, yet be made up primarily of small LDL and small HDL particles, under which conditions atheroma growth rates are high. A post hoc analysis of the IDEAL and the EPIC prospective studies found an association between high levels of HDL cholesterol (adjusted for apolipoprotein A-I and apolipoprotein B) and increased risk of cardiovascular disease, casting doubt on the cardioprotective role of "good cholesterol".[73][74] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercholesterolemia#Diagnosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercholesterolemia#Diagnosis Higher levels of total cholesterol increase the risk of cardiovascular disease, particularly coronary heart disease.[33] Levels of LDL or non-HDL cholesterol both predict future coronary heart disease; which is the better predictor is disputed.[34] High levels of small dense LDL may be particularly adverse, although measurement of small dense LDL is not advocated for risk prediction.[34] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_hypothesis The lipid hypothesis (also known as the cholesterol hypothesis) is a medical theory postulating a link between blood cholesterol levels and occurrence of heart disease. A summary from 1976 described it as: "measures used to lower the plasma lipids in patients with hyperlipidemia will lead to reductions in new events of coronary heart disease".[1] Or, more concisely, "decreasing blood cholesterol... significantly reduces coronary heart disease".[2] An accumulation of evidence has led to the acceptance of the lipid hypothesis by most of the medical community.[3]
mjlangiii 7y ago
Heart disease is America's biggest killer. There is a lot of data that eating cholesterol effects disease rates including heart disease, cancer, etc. If you study disease rates for those eating cholesterol and those replacing it with a plant based diet, eating cholesterol is higher. While you have a particular point about eating cholesterol, measuring cholesterol, and related disease rates - are you suggesting people's health is not negatively affected by eating cholesterol? Here's a simple study eating an egg versus not, it compares stopping eating cholesterol to stopping smoking. [0] [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21076725 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21076725
- simonsarris 7y ago
  Did you actually read that paper? It's an article, not a study. The article is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989358/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989358/ The USA is obsessed with cholesterol because of years of bad science. Here's a 2015 Japanese Supplementary Review on Cholesterol and Mortality Rates: Higher Cholesterol = Longer Life https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/381654 https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/381654 It concludes: > Our fervent wish is that, through this supplementary issue, people can see that the cholesterol hypothesis relies on very weak data—and sometimes considerably distorted data. Indeed, many studies in Japan actually show that cholesterol plays a very positive role in health. We hope that JAS, and the government authorities that defer to JAS’s recommendations, will move toward recognizing cholesterol as a friend not an enemy. In the meantime, we will continue pushing for acceptance of the anti-cholesterol hypothesis, to reverse what we see as the biggest mistake made by medical science in the previous century.
  - mjlangiii 7y ago
    I read it a few years ago. Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.
  - mjlangiii 7y ago
    I agree with many of the critical points they make in this Japanese review. There should be higher standards for nutritional research. The main idea seems to be that in Japan because there are some positive patterns observed regarding all causes of death and high cholesterol levels and because other studies showing high cholesterol is bad were all flawed, therefore it is warranted to recommend eating more cholesterol. Well, the notion that eating cholesterol effects your cholesterol level goes against your first comment. Then the sentiment that you can throw the baby out with the bath water seems extreme, if you can find a flaw in studies that disagree with you then your studies that agree with you prove the point. I mean, I agree that when there is no un-flawed data it is hard to draw conclusions, but are their studies all really as so unblemished. A main criticism of theirs is studies citing rates of death for certain diseases without mentioning the rate for all causes of death, but a lot of their cited studies do the exact same, only some of them reported rates for all causes of death. Finally, and I know you're surprised, I am not persuaded by them that eating cholesterol or having high/"normal" cholesterol levels is neutral or positive in affecting your health. I agree with them that we need much better data. I understand that in Japan they observed lower rates of date from all causes. But the only question I really have is what should I eat to avoid dying as an American, and this article just doesn't really cover that one way or another. I'm very grateful for sharing it, there are a lot of good insights in there.
flowardnut 7y ago
I've got high cholesterol from both parents -- when I was first tested (around 25), my total cholesterol was ~250, my HDLs were < 20. I had ran multiple half marathons that year, and I was eating rather well. My doctor asked me to try cutting cholesterol out of my diet, and it helped remarkably. I went vegan for quite awhile, and added some foods that help with HDL. The next time I got checked, they were amazing. I've since added some cheese/eggs/fish back into my diet, but I try to keep it low. I hover around 200, with pretty decent HDLs. Genetic testing showed I (may) have some genetic issues around cholesterol recycling, so it's not a one-size-fits-all thing.
- virtuallynathan 7y ago
  Yea, you can have issues with NPC1L1 or ABCG5/G8 which will impact cholesterol/plant sterol absorption or excretion in the gut. If you are a hyperabsorber, you may want to check your plant sterol levels (xenosterols), as they can lead to health issues. What is your HDL now?

hanniabu 7y ago

I don't get what you're upset about. The title doesn't infer that cholesterol is causing death and they state int he article that they aren't related.

gravy 7y ago
Then why mention high cholesterol at all?
losteric 7y ago
Seems more like a tangential complaint about general societal ignorance of that fact... and the title seems to be phrased as clickbait for people that believe in the cholesterol boogieman.
latexr 7y ago
The title of the article says “this happens”, but then body continues with “but it looks like it doesn’t matter”. It’s clickbait.

ThrowawayR2 7y ago

I don't think this article really says anything for or against that. The article did note that eating the burgers did raise the crows' cholesterol levels and also that "Crows, “which can live more than 15 years in the wild, might develop disease later in life,” but this needs further research, Townsend says."

YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago

I don't understand - what is the dumb meme? The link of high cholesterol to heart disease seems to be very well supported by numerous studies, and so are the benefits of reducing high LDL with diet or medication (statins). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol#Hypercholesterolemia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol#Hypercholesterolem... According to the lipid hypothesis, elevated levels of cholesterol in the blood lead to atherosclerosis which may increase the risk of heart attack, stroke, and peripheral vascular disease. Since higher blood LDL – especially higher LDL concentrations and smaller LDL particle size – contributes to this process more than the cholesterol content of the HDL particles,[68] LDL particles are often termed "bad cholesterol". High concentrations of functional HDL, which can remove cholesterol from cells and atheromas, offer protection and are commonly referred to as "good cholesterol". These balances are mostly genetically determined, but can be changed by body composition, medications, diet,[69] and other factors.[70] A 2007 study demonstrated that blood total cholesterol levels have an exponential effect on cardiovascular and total mortality, with the association more pronounced in younger subjects. Because cardiovascular disease is relatively rare in the younger population, the impact of high cholesterol on health is larger in older people.[71] Elevated levels of the lipoprotein fractions, LDL, IDL and VLDL, rather than the total cholesterol level, correlate with the extent and progress of atherosclerosis.[72] Conversely, the total cholesterol can be within normal limits, yet be made up primarily of small LDL and small HDL particles, under which conditions atheroma growth rates are high. A post hoc analysis of the IDEAL and the EPIC prospective studies found an association between high levels of HDL cholesterol (adjusted for apolipoprotein A-I and apolipoprotein B) and increased risk of cardiovascular disease, casting doubt on the cardioprotective role of "good cholesterol".[73][74] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercholesterolemia#Diagnosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercholesterolemia#Diagnosis Higher levels of total cholesterol increase the risk of cardiovascular disease, particularly coronary heart disease.[33] Levels of LDL or non-HDL cholesterol both predict future coronary heart disease; which is the better predictor is disputed.[34] High levels of small dense LDL may be particularly adverse, although measurement of small dense LDL is not advocated for risk prediction.[34] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_hypothesis The lipid hypothesis (also known as the cholesterol hypothesis) is a medical theory postulating a link between blood cholesterol levels and occurrence of heart disease. A summary from 1976 described it as: "measures used to lower the plasma lipids in patients with hyperlipidemia will lead to reductions in new events of coronary heart disease".[1] Or, more concisely, "decreasing blood cholesterol... significantly reduces coronary heart disease".[2] An accumulation of evidence has led to the acceptance of the lipid hypothesis by most of the medical community.[3]

mjlangiii 7y ago

Heart disease is America's biggest killer. There is a lot of data that eating cholesterol effects disease rates including heart disease, cancer, etc. If you study disease rates for those eating cholesterol and those replacing it with a plant based diet, eating cholesterol is higher. While you have a particular point about eating cholesterol, measuring cholesterol, and related disease rates - are you suggesting people's health is not negatively affected by eating cholesterol? Here's a simple study eating an egg versus not, it compares stopping eating cholesterol to stopping smoking. [0] [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21076725 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21076725

simonsarris 7y ago
Did you actually read that paper? It's an article, not a study. The article is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989358/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989358/ The USA is obsessed with cholesterol because of years of bad science. Here's a 2015 Japanese Supplementary Review on Cholesterol and Mortality Rates: Higher Cholesterol = Longer Life https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/381654 https://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/381654 It concludes: > Our fervent wish is that, through this supplementary issue, people can see that the cholesterol hypothesis relies on very weak data—and sometimes considerably distorted data. Indeed, many studies in Japan actually show that cholesterol plays a very positive role in health. We hope that JAS, and the government authorities that defer to JAS’s recommendations, will move toward recognizing cholesterol as a friend not an enemy. In the meantime, we will continue pushing for acceptance of the anti-cholesterol hypothesis, to reverse what we see as the biggest mistake made by medical science in the previous century.
- mjlangiii 7y ago
  I read it a few years ago. Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.
- mjlangiii 7y ago
  I agree with many of the critical points they make in this Japanese review. There should be higher standards for nutritional research. The main idea seems to be that in Japan because there are some positive patterns observed regarding all causes of death and high cholesterol levels and because other studies showing high cholesterol is bad were all flawed, therefore it is warranted to recommend eating more cholesterol. Well, the notion that eating cholesterol effects your cholesterol level goes against your first comment. Then the sentiment that you can throw the baby out with the bath water seems extreme, if you can find a flaw in studies that disagree with you then your studies that agree with you prove the point. I mean, I agree that when there is no un-flawed data it is hard to draw conclusions, but are their studies all really as so unblemished. A main criticism of theirs is studies citing rates of death for certain diseases without mentioning the rate for all causes of death, but a lot of their cited studies do the exact same, only some of them reported rates for all causes of death. Finally, and I know you're surprised, I am not persuaded by them that eating cholesterol or having high/"normal" cholesterol levels is neutral or positive in affecting your health. I agree with them that we need much better data. I understand that in Japan they observed lower rates of date from all causes. But the only question I really have is what should I eat to avoid dying as an American, and this article just doesn't really cover that one way or another. I'm very grateful for sharing it, there are a lot of good insights in there.

flowardnut 7y ago

I've got high cholesterol from both parents -- when I was first tested (around 25), my total cholesterol was ~250, my HDLs were < 20. I had ran multiple half marathons that year, and I was eating rather well. My doctor asked me to try cutting cholesterol out of my diet, and it helped remarkably. I went vegan for quite awhile, and added some foods that help with HDL. The next time I got checked, they were amazing. I've since added some cheese/eggs/fish back into my diet, but I try to keep it low. I hover around 200, with pretty decent HDLs. Genetic testing showed I (may) have some genetic issues around cholesterol recycling, so it's not a one-size-fits-all thing.

virtuallynathan 7y ago
Yea, you can have issues with NPC1L1 or ABCG5/G8 which will impact cholesterol/plant sterol absorption or excretion in the gut. If you are a hyperabsorber, you may want to check your plant sterol levels (xenosterols), as they can lead to health issues. What is your HDL now?