6 ms·

Nobody likes the idea of arresting undocumented immigrants and kicking them out of the country. It could probably be done in a better way too. And the legal imm

by jdlyga 7y ago

Nobody likes the idea of arresting undocumented immigrants and kicking them out of the country. It could probably be done in a better way too. And the legal immigration system is crazy (I've dealt with it myself). But it's work that needs to be done to secure the border, even though it's heartbreaking sometimes. Just like security making sure people don't sneak into a concert without a ticket. I probably wouldn't want to work for a company that was involved in supplying info to ICE raids, but there's a lot of jobs I wouldn't be interested in doing. People should be able to decide for themselves.

spamizbad 7y ago
Is there any documented evidence on the efficacy of ICE raids? They seem to function primarily as a destabilizing force in communities. We certainly seemed to be doing fine prior to 2003. From what I can see, they're a bloated DHS organ that's sucking down massive amounts of tax dollars for what amounts to security theater. You'd think in the $47 billion DHS budget they'd find some money for things like soap and toothbrushes.
- AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
  Yes, there is evidence, right on the ICE website: https://www.ice.gov/features/ERO-2018 https://www.ice.gov/features/ERO-2018
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - spamizbad 7y ago
    A sweep targeting thousands of people nation-wide resulted in only 35 arrests: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-07-23/ice-raids-immigration-arrests https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-07-23/ice-ra... The number on ICE's website are computed based on an Obama-era change where they can count turning away people at the border as a deportation.
    - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
      Did I get it right that you're complaining about ICE not making enough arrests?
      - spamizbad 7y ago
        I'm saying it's a bloated government organ that spends billions of tax-payer dollars to perform what amounts to security theater. You could cut it down to 1/10th the size and pass the savings on to tax payers (or allocate somewhere more effective) and get better outcomes. Even if you support their mission There's really nothing defensible ICE. They're sucking down billions while being bad at what they do.
- mLuby 7y ago
  The raids are efficacious, not in their legal purpose of securing the homeland and enforcing the rule of law but in their political purpose of providing media-worthy evidence to voters that the ruling party is aggressively protecting those voters from The Other. $47B to stay in power is a steal.
pjc50 7y ago
> But it's work that needs to be done to secure the border, even though it's heartbreaking sometimes. Does it? How much violence is too much for this? What is the nature of this security and how many deaths is it worth? Or is this just another Vietnam/Iraq endless meat grinder of ill-considered purpose?
- weberc2 7y ago
  How many deaths are actually caused by securing the border, especially compared to Iraq/Vietnam? Further, are these essential to securing the border, or could we secure the border effectively while reducing the casualties? Lastly, instead of directing our outrage at the country defending its sovereignty, perhaps we could look at the countries that are creating conditions that drive its citizens to make the desperate decisions to immigrate illegally?
  - pjc50 7y ago
    > perhaps we could look at the countries that are creating conditions that drive its citizens to make the desperate decisions to immigrate illegally? That would be great, actually. A mature intelligent solution that helps everyone, which is why it's not going to happen.
    - weberc2 7y ago
      Well, we agree on this much, at least. :)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- word-reader 7y ago
  People put their lives and their children's lives in danger to illegally enter the United States, frequently paying human traffickers substantial money in the process, because the border and enforcement is weak. They know that if they can get past the border they have a very good chance of spending as long as they want living and working in the US.
pen2l 7y ago
You’re missing the fact that while doing « important » things, they are tearing families apart, putting little kids in camps. Proud of more people standing up against palanatir, hope more do it.
- raven105x 7y ago
  This isn't true. Their own government created the pre-requisite conditions for this, and then their parents acted on those by breaking the law. If you are an insane or mentally incapable parent, your kids will be, essentially 'put in a camp'. The US government is doing what it should be. Identity politics zealots can down-vote, of course, but I fought a decade for my green card - the right way. And every time people who skirt the law are allowed to stay in this country the wrong way it disrespects, belittles and is a slap in the fact to everyone who came here the right way, respectfully waiting even while my own family was living in basically a war zone. Anyone who comes here illegally to benefit themselves at the expense of the state is an enemy - forget this, or sacrifice this principle, and your progeny will very likely be born into a living hell of a similar kind that those people (god bless them, I'm not heartless - I grew up in it) are trying to run away from. I thought this before I had my green card as well: it's about integrity.
  - UnrealIncident 7y ago
    That's a very roundabout way of saying "fuck you, got mine". Also trying to justify splitting apart families and leaving literal babies in cages to fend for themselves is messed up.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - pnw_hazor 7y ago
      Good thing that isn't happening then. Except maybe in China where Google and Apple like to operate.
  - jvdizzle 7y ago
okmokmz 7y ago
>Nobody likes the idea of arresting undocumented immigrants and kicking them out of the country Tell that to my grandma
thrillgore 7y ago
>But it's work that needs to be done to secure the border, even though it's heartbreaking sometimes Sounds like you have no problem having yourself and your loved ones sitting in a cage with no hygiene considerations, then.
viraptor 7y ago
> But it's work that needs to be done to secure the border I'm not sure if this makes sense. If you're trying to deport someone living as an undocumented immigrant, they're already past the border. ICE explicitly does not work at the border anyway, that's a different agency.
- weberc2 7y ago
  Enforcing laws dissuades others from violating those laws. We can debate how effective law enforcement is, but that's the premise.

by jdlyga 7y ago

spamizbad 7y ago

Is there any documented evidence on the efficacy of ICE raids? They seem to function primarily as a destabilizing force in communities. We certainly seemed to be doing fine prior to 2003. From what I can see, they're a bloated DHS organ that's sucking down massive amounts of tax dollars for what amounts to security theater. You'd think in the $47 billion DHS budget they'd find some money for things like soap and toothbrushes.

AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
Yes, there is evidence, right on the ICE website: https://www.ice.gov/features/ERO-2018 https://www.ice.gov/features/ERO-2018
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- spamizbad 7y ago
  A sweep targeting thousands of people nation-wide resulted in only 35 arrests: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-07-23/ice-raids-immigration-arrests https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-07-23/ice-ra... The number on ICE's website are computed based on an Obama-era change where they can count turning away people at the border as a deportation.
  - AlexTWithBeard 7y ago
    Did I get it right that you're complaining about ICE not making enough arrests?
    - spamizbad 7y ago
      I'm saying it's a bloated government organ that spends billions of tax-payer dollars to perform what amounts to security theater. You could cut it down to 1/10th the size and pass the savings on to tax payers (or allocate somewhere more effective) and get better outcomes. Even if you support their mission There's really nothing defensible ICE. They're sucking down billions while being bad at what they do.
mLuby 7y ago
The raids are efficacious, not in their legal purpose of securing the homeland and enforcing the rule of law but in their political purpose of providing media-worthy evidence to voters that the ruling party is aggressively protecting those voters from The Other. $47B to stay in power is a steal.

pjc50 7y ago

> But it's work that needs to be done to secure the border, even though it's heartbreaking sometimes. Does it? How much violence is too much for this? What is the nature of this security and how many deaths is it worth? Or is this just another Vietnam/Iraq endless meat grinder of ill-considered purpose?

weberc2 7y ago
How many deaths are actually caused by securing the border, especially compared to Iraq/Vietnam? Further, are these essential to securing the border, or could we secure the border effectively while reducing the casualties? Lastly, instead of directing our outrage at the country defending its sovereignty, perhaps we could look at the countries that are creating conditions that drive its citizens to make the desperate decisions to immigrate illegally?
- pjc50 7y ago
  > perhaps we could look at the countries that are creating conditions that drive its citizens to make the desperate decisions to immigrate illegally? That would be great, actually. A mature intelligent solution that helps everyone, which is why it's not going to happen.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    Well, we agree on this much, at least. :)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
word-reader 7y ago
People put their lives and their children's lives in danger to illegally enter the United States, frequently paying human traffickers substantial money in the process, because the border and enforcement is weak. They know that if they can get past the border they have a very good chance of spending as long as they want living and working in the US.

pen2l 7y ago

You’re missing the fact that while doing « important » things, they are tearing families apart, putting little kids in camps. Proud of more people standing up against palanatir, hope more do it.

raven105x 7y ago
This isn't true. Their own government created the pre-requisite conditions for this, and then their parents acted on those by breaking the law. If you are an insane or mentally incapable parent, your kids will be, essentially 'put in a camp'. The US government is doing what it should be. Identity politics zealots can down-vote, of course, but I fought a decade for my green card - the right way. And every time people who skirt the law are allowed to stay in this country the wrong way it disrespects, belittles and is a slap in the fact to everyone who came here the right way, respectfully waiting even while my own family was living in basically a war zone. Anyone who comes here illegally to benefit themselves at the expense of the state is an enemy - forget this, or sacrifice this principle, and your progeny will very likely be born into a living hell of a similar kind that those people (god bless them, I'm not heartless - I grew up in it) are trying to run away from. I thought this before I had my green card as well: it's about integrity.
- UnrealIncident 7y ago
  That's a very roundabout way of saying "fuck you, got mine". Also trying to justify splitting apart families and leaving literal babies in cages to fend for themselves is messed up.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - pnw_hazor 7y ago
    Good thing that isn't happening then. Except maybe in China where Google and Apple like to operate.
- jvdizzle 7y ago

okmokmz 7y ago

>Nobody likes the idea of arresting undocumented immigrants and kicking them out of the country Tell that to my grandma

thrillgore 7y ago

>But it's work that needs to be done to secure the border, even though it's heartbreaking sometimes Sounds like you have no problem having yourself and your loved ones sitting in a cage with no hygiene considerations, then.

viraptor 7y ago

> But it's work that needs to be done to secure the border I'm not sure if this makes sense. If you're trying to deport someone living as an undocumented immigrant, they're already past the border. ICE explicitly does not work at the border anyway, that's a different agency.

weberc2 7y ago
Enforcing laws dissuades others from violating those laws. We can debate how effective law enforcement is, but that's the premise.