4 ms·

Gender studies did indeed start out this way, dismissive of notions of "biological sex," until the case of David Reimer threw a bucket of cold water on those se

Gender studies did indeed start out this way, dismissive of notions of "biological sex," until the case of David Reimer threw a bucket of cold water on those second-wave feminist theories. David was the victim of a botched circumcision as an infant. His doctors decided to turn an outie into an innie, constructed a vagina, and told his parents to raise him as a woman. He was given "vitamin" pills (actually estrogen) and forcibly socialized as female, but it didn't take. He identified as male throughout his life, transitioned as an adult, eventually discovered the truth his parents were hiding and finally killed himself. This was an early factor in third-wave feminism accepting gender identity, which is why almost all millenial and gen-Z feminists accept trans and intersex people and why TERFs tend to be older (or deceased, good riddance Janice Raymond.) I've found that the left tends to distrust science that may contradict its ideology, and the right tends to distrust experiences too alien from their own. In Reimer's case, the science had a human tragedy at the center of it which bridged the gap and led to change.

not_a_terf 7y ago
Wouldn't the Reimer story support a naive version of biological sex moreso than an acceptance of gender identity?
- danharaj 7y ago
  It supports believing people about what their gender identity is instead of imposing it on them. The rate of attempted suicide in transgender people is over 40% if they are not socially supported. That rate drops to general population levels in trans people who have familial and community support when transitioning.
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    Interesting stats, do you have a citation on the suicide rates?
    - dbuder 7y ago
      It's about right and climbs post op.
  - jtbayly 7y ago
    There is almost no scientific evidence for the idea that complete support will prevent adverse outcomes for this group. Long-term the evidence is the opposite. Claiming that the difference between long and short-term outcomes is explained by the difference between support levels is not science. It is guessing. "One hypothesis, the social stress model—which posits that stigma, prejudice, and discrimination are the primary causes of higher rates of poor mental health outcomes for these subpopulations—is frequently cited as a way to explain this disparity. While non-heterosexual and transgender individu- als are often subject to social stressors and discrimination, science has not shown that these factors alone account for the entirety, or even a major- ity, of the health disparity between non-heterosexual and transgender subpopulations and the general population. There is a need for extensive research in this area to test the social stress hypothesis and other poten- tial explanations for the health disparities, and to help identify ways of addressing the health concerns present in these subpopulations." https://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf https://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50Sexualit...
  - Digory 7y ago
    Link? The 41% figure is usually the Williams survey[0] in 2014, which doesn't exactly say that. [0] http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFS...
xkapastel 7y ago
> This was an early factor in third-wave feminism accepting gender identity, which is why almost all millenial and gen-Z feminists accept trans and intersex people and why TERFs tend to be older I don't see why this story would lead anyone to accept gender identity. I also think there are many millenials and gen-Z's who would be classified as "TERFs", and in fact would view the term as derogatory.
- detcader 7y ago
  It's a term that people have started scrawling on women's shelters [1]. I am unconvinced it is a purely "descriptive" thing... [1] https://www.facebook.com/252414605231327/posts/718623355277114 https://www.facebook.com/252414605231327/posts/7186233552771... *Edited to be less snarky
alfromspace 7y ago
Biological factors like being intersex or botched surgeries are not relevant to gender identity 98% of the time. There really are only 2 sexes, I'm sorry to inform you. The trolls are right.
danharaj 7y ago
> and forcibly socialized as female, but it didn't take. Reimer's socialization was a lot more traumatic than being told he was female. The wikipedia article only touches the surface of the disturbing abuse he was subjected to.
detcader 7y ago
Celebrating the death of a feminist woman because you disagreed with her politically is probably the best way to get people to trust you, produce helpful discourse and not fall in line with whoever makes their argument most aggressively
not_a_terf 7y ago
> or deceased, good riddance Janice Raymond Did Janice Raymond pass away? Did you mean Mary Daly?

not_a_terf 7y ago

Wouldn't the Reimer story support a naive version of biological sex moreso than an acceptance of gender identity?

danharaj 7y ago
It supports believing people about what their gender identity is instead of imposing it on them. The rate of attempted suicide in transgender people is over 40% if they are not socially supported. That rate drops to general population levels in trans people who have familial and community support when transitioning.
- merpnderp 7y ago
  Interesting stats, do you have a citation on the suicide rates?
  - dbuder 7y ago
    It's about right and climbs post op.
- jtbayly 7y ago
  There is almost no scientific evidence for the idea that complete support will prevent adverse outcomes for this group. Long-term the evidence is the opposite. Claiming that the difference between long and short-term outcomes is explained by the difference between support levels is not science. It is guessing. "One hypothesis, the social stress model—which posits that stigma, prejudice, and discrimination are the primary causes of higher rates of poor mental health outcomes for these subpopulations—is frequently cited as a way to explain this disparity. While non-heterosexual and transgender individu- als are often subject to social stressors and discrimination, science has not shown that these factors alone account for the entirety, or even a major- ity, of the health disparity between non-heterosexual and transgender subpopulations and the general population. There is a need for extensive research in this area to test the social stress hypothesis and other poten- tial explanations for the health disparities, and to help identify ways of addressing the health concerns present in these subpopulations." https://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50SexualityandGender.pdf https://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLib/20160819_TNA50Sexualit...
- Digory 7y ago
  Link? The 41% figure is usually the Williams survey[0] in 2014, which doesn't exactly say that. [0] http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFS...

xkapastel 7y ago

> This was an early factor in third-wave feminism accepting gender identity, which is why almost all millenial and gen-Z feminists accept trans and intersex people and why TERFs tend to be older I don't see why this story would lead anyone to accept gender identity. I also think there are many millenials and gen-Z's who would be classified as "TERFs", and in fact would view the term as derogatory.

detcader 7y ago
It's a term that people have started scrawling on women's shelters [1]. I am unconvinced it is a purely "descriptive" thing... [1] https://www.facebook.com/252414605231327/posts/718623355277114 https://www.facebook.com/252414605231327/posts/7186233552771... *Edited to be less snarky

alfromspace 7y ago

Biological factors like being intersex or botched surgeries are not relevant to gender identity 98% of the time. There really are only 2 sexes, I'm sorry to inform you. The trolls are right.

danharaj 7y ago

> and forcibly socialized as female, but it didn't take. Reimer's socialization was a lot more traumatic than being told he was female. The wikipedia article only touches the surface of the disturbing abuse he was subjected to.

detcader 7y ago

Celebrating the death of a feminist woman because you disagreed with her politically is probably the best way to get people to trust you, produce helpful discourse and not fall in line with whoever makes their argument most aggressively

not_a_terf 7y ago

> or deceased, good riddance Janice Raymond Did Janice Raymond pass away? Did you mean Mary Daly?