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I’m not that familiar with her work. But my understanding is that when disciplines like gender studies were being formed they completely ignored biology and nat

I’m not that familiar with her work. But my understanding is that when disciplines like gender studies were being formed they completely ignored biology and nature.in fact there were no biologists in the gender studies departments. And she was one of the first people to suggest that we must study gender with a basis in biology. This is what she may be referencing in the passage you quoted.

jboynyc 7y ago
Ahem... Do you know about Anne Fasto-Sterling or Donna Haraway? They are both highly credentialed biologists and pivotal figures in the development of women's/gender studies.
- YorkshireSeason 7y ago
  In what sense is Donna Haraway a "highly credentialed biologist"?
  - soudiere 7y ago
    Haraway has a PhD in Biology from Yale.
    - YorkshireSeason 7y ago
      According to Wikipedia [1] her PhD was about "use of metaphor in shaping experiments in experimental biology". This is not what I'd call biology proper. You can have a look at it: it was later published as a book "Crystals, Fabrics, and Fields" which is available online [2]. I'm not sure how [2] makes her a "highly credentialed biologist" (in the same sense that "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" doesn't make Kuhn a highly credentialed physicist). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway [2] https://monoskop.org/images/5/58/Haraway_Donna_Crystals_Fabrics_and_Fields_Metaphors_That_Shape_Embryos.pdf https://monoskop.org/images/5/58/Haraway_Donna_Crystals_Fabr...
      - soudiere 7y ago
        Yet somehow she got a PhD in biology from Yale with it, we should probably read it before judging it as "a biology paper" or "not a biology paper". Feel free to list some highly credentialed social scientists you respect, and we can look up their PhD thesis titles. Bottom line is she's highly credentialed with a PhD from Yale, taught at John Hopkins, and is now a "distinguished professor emerita" at UCSC.
        YorkshireSeason 7y ago
        we should probably read it I spent about 20 minutes reading parts of it. I'd classify it as "history of science" (a perfectly valid subject). Bottom line is she's highly No. She is in no way "highly credentialised in biology". She has taught at universities but "Women's Studies and the History of Science", and "History of Consciousness [...] and Feminist Studies". (From [1]) The content of her Yale PhD is not in biology, in the way this term is usually understood (DNA, proteins, signalling chains, PCR, bench work, taxonomy of animals, ... i.e. studying the physical structure, chemical processes, molecular interactions, physiological mechanisms, development and evolution of living organisms). Since the scientific credibility of subjects like "Feminist Studies" is controversial (unlike biology) claiming high credentials where there are none, makes me think of HN guidelines [7]: when discussing highly controversial subjects like, discussions about scientific credentials, should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less. list some highly credentialed social scientists you respect, I don't see why this is relevant for Haraway, not every great scientist has a great dissertation or written their dissertation in the field they later became famous for. The "bottom line" is that Haraway has no substantial credentials in biology, and certainly she has not done research in biology in the sense the term is usually understood. Anyway, to take up your challenge, I'm fairly familiar with the following highly credentialed social scientists: Karl Marx (PhD in philosophy on ancient Greek philosophy, I have been unable to locate it, if you have a link to the text, I'd be grateful), Max Weber (PhD in law about commercial law in Italy [2, 3]), Talcott Parsons (PhD is [4]), Émile Durkheim (PhD is on the division of labour [5]) and Niklas Luhmann (PhD about automation in administrations [6]). How is all this relevant regarding Donna Haraway? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway [2] http://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/research/weber1.html http://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/research/weber1.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zur_Geschichte_der_Handelsgesellschaften_im_Mittelalter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zur_Geschichte_der_Handelsgese... [4] https://www.jstor.org/stable/1820700?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents https://www.jstor.org/stable/1820700?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Division_of_Labour_in_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Division_of_Labour_in_Soci... [6] https://www.amazon.de/Recht-Automation-%C3%B6ffentlichen-Verwaltung-verwaltungswissenschaftliche/dp/3428009606 https://www.amazon.de/Recht-Automation-%C3%B6ffentlichen-Ver... [7] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jboynyc 7y ago
  I doubt there's much desire around here to argue the merits of gender studies in good faith. However, those proclaiming that gender scholarship doesn't get biology, I suggest you pick up Evelyn Fox Keller's excellent book Making Sense of Life (HUP, 2002) and allow yourselves to be surprised. (Yes, Keller is a physicist, not a biologist. Those trying to belittle or dismiss what women's studies has accomplished will probably use that to disqualify her contribution...)
  - soudiere 7y ago
    I will give it a read. Fausto-Sterling seems to be loose with data. In The Five Sexes she cites Money as the source for upwards of 4% of the population being intersexual. Money denied the claim here (last page) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239657377_The_Five_Sexes_Why_Male_and_Female_are_not_Enough https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239657377_The_Five_... Later she revised to 1.7% in this paper with some fairly loose definitions of what constitutes "frequency of deviation from the idea female or male" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.sci-hub.tw/pubmed/11534012 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.sci-hub.tw/pubmed/11534012 If you dig into the 1.7% figure, 87% of it comes from late onset CAH. Problematic, as Late onset CAH is very similar to PCOS, which affects 5-10% of the population and was excluded. Both fit her definition of deviation from the sexual idea (hirtuisim, infertility) https://i.imgur.com/BYi5dem.png https://i.imgur.com/BYi5dem.png
    - jboynyc 7y ago
      Sure, but that's a weird publication of hers to take issue with. For context (from Wikipedia): > In a paper entitled "The Five Sexes", in which, according to her, "I had intended to be provocative, but I had also written with tongue firmly in cheek." Fausto-Sterling laid out a thought experiment considering an alternative model of gender containing five sexes: male, female, merm, ferm, and herm. This thought experiment was interpreted by some as a serious proposal or even a theory; advocates for intersex people stated that this theory was wrong, confusing and unhelpful to the interests of intersex people. In a later paper ("The Five Sexes, Revisited"), she has acknowledged these objections.
sterlind 7y ago
Gender studies did indeed start out this way, dismissive of notions of "biological sex," until the case of David Reimer threw a bucket of cold water on those second-wave feminist theories. David was the victim of a botched circumcision as an infant. His doctors decided to turn an outie into an innie, constructed a vagina, and told his parents to raise him as a woman. He was given "vitamin" pills (actually estrogen) and forcibly socialized as female, but it didn't take. He identified as male throughout his life, transitioned as an adult, eventually discovered the truth his parents were hiding and finally killed himself. This was an early factor in third-wave feminism accepting gender identity, which is why almost all millenial and gen-Z feminists accept trans and intersex people and why TERFs tend to be older (or deceased, good riddance Janice Raymond.) I've found that the left tends to distrust science that may contradict its ideology, and the right tends to distrust experiences too alien from their own. In Reimer's case, the science had a human tragedy at the center of it which bridged the gap and led to change.
- not_a_terf 7y ago
  Wouldn't the Reimer story support a naive version of biological sex moreso than an acceptance of gender identity?
  - danharaj 7y ago
    It supports believing people about what their gender identity is instead of imposing it on them. The rate of attempted suicide in transgender people is over 40% if they are not socially supported. That rate drops to general population levels in trans people who have familial and community support when transitioning.
    - merpnderp 7y ago
      Interesting stats, do you have a citation on the suicide rates?
      - dbuder 7y ago
        It's about right and climbs post op.

jboynyc 7y ago

Ahem... Do you know about Anne Fasto-Sterling or Donna Haraway? They are both highly credentialed biologists and pivotal figures in the development of women's/gender studies.

YorkshireSeason 7y ago
In what sense is Donna Haraway a "highly credentialed biologist"?
- soudiere 7y ago
  Haraway has a PhD in Biology from Yale.
  - YorkshireSeason 7y ago
    According to Wikipedia [1] her PhD was about "use of metaphor in shaping experiments in experimental biology". This is not what I'd call biology proper. You can have a look at it: it was later published as a book "Crystals, Fabrics, and Fields" which is available online [2]. I'm not sure how [2] makes her a "highly credentialed biologist" (in the same sense that "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" doesn't make Kuhn a highly credentialed physicist). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway [2] https://monoskop.org/images/5/58/Haraway_Donna_Crystals_Fabrics_and_Fields_Metaphors_That_Shape_Embryos.pdf https://monoskop.org/images/5/58/Haraway_Donna_Crystals_Fabr...
    - soudiere 7y ago
      Yet somehow she got a PhD in biology from Yale with it, we should probably read it before judging it as "a biology paper" or "not a biology paper". Feel free to list some highly credentialed social scientists you respect, and we can look up their PhD thesis titles. Bottom line is she's highly credentialed with a PhD from Yale, taught at John Hopkins, and is now a "distinguished professor emerita" at UCSC.
      - YorkshireSeason 7y ago
        we should probably read it I spent about 20 minutes reading parts of it. I'd classify it as "history of science" (a perfectly valid subject). Bottom line is she's highly No. She is in no way "highly credentialised in biology". She has taught at universities but "Women's Studies and the History of Science", and "History of Consciousness [...] and Feminist Studies". (From [1]) The content of her Yale PhD is not in biology, in the way this term is usually understood (DNA, proteins, signalling chains, PCR, bench work, taxonomy of animals, ... i.e. studying the physical structure, chemical processes, molecular interactions, physiological mechanisms, development and evolution of living organisms). Since the scientific credibility of subjects like "Feminist Studies" is controversial (unlike biology) claiming high credentials where there are none, makes me think of HN guidelines [7]: when discussing highly controversial subjects like, discussions about scientific credentials, should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less. list some highly credentialed social scientists you respect, I don't see why this is relevant for Haraway, not every great scientist has a great dissertation or written their dissertation in the field they later became famous for. The "bottom line" is that Haraway has no substantial credentials in biology, and certainly she has not done research in biology in the sense the term is usually understood. Anyway, to take up your challenge, I'm fairly familiar with the following highly credentialed social scientists: Karl Marx (PhD in philosophy on ancient Greek philosophy, I have been unable to locate it, if you have a link to the text, I'd be grateful), Max Weber (PhD in law about commercial law in Italy [2, 3]), Talcott Parsons (PhD is [4]), Émile Durkheim (PhD is on the division of labour [5]) and Niklas Luhmann (PhD about automation in administrations [6]). How is all this relevant regarding Donna Haraway? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway [2] http://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/research/weber1.html http://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/research/weber1.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zur_Geschichte_der_Handelsgesellschaften_im_Mittelalter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zur_Geschichte_der_Handelsgese... [4] https://www.jstor.org/stable/1820700?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents https://www.jstor.org/stable/1820700?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Division_of_Labour_in_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Division_of_Labour_in_Soci... [6] https://www.amazon.de/Recht-Automation-%C3%B6ffentlichen-Verwaltung-verwaltungswissenschaftliche/dp/3428009606 https://www.amazon.de/Recht-Automation-%C3%B6ffentlichen-Ver... [7] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jboynyc 7y ago
I doubt there's much desire around here to argue the merits of gender studies in good faith. However, those proclaiming that gender scholarship doesn't get biology, I suggest you pick up Evelyn Fox Keller's excellent book Making Sense of Life (HUP, 2002) and allow yourselves to be surprised. (Yes, Keller is a physicist, not a biologist. Those trying to belittle or dismiss what women's studies has accomplished will probably use that to disqualify her contribution...)
- soudiere 7y ago
  I will give it a read. Fausto-Sterling seems to be loose with data. In The Five Sexes she cites Money as the source for upwards of 4% of the population being intersexual. Money denied the claim here (last page) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239657377_The_Five_Sexes_Why_Male_and_Female_are_not_Enough https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239657377_The_Five_... Later she revised to 1.7% in this paper with some fairly loose definitions of what constitutes "frequency of deviation from the idea female or male" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.sci-hub.tw/pubmed/11534012 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.sci-hub.tw/pubmed/11534012 If you dig into the 1.7% figure, 87% of it comes from late onset CAH. Problematic, as Late onset CAH is very similar to PCOS, which affects 5-10% of the population and was excluded. Both fit her definition of deviation from the sexual idea (hirtuisim, infertility) https://i.imgur.com/BYi5dem.png https://i.imgur.com/BYi5dem.png
  - jboynyc 7y ago
    Sure, but that's a weird publication of hers to take issue with. For context (from Wikipedia): > In a paper entitled "The Five Sexes", in which, according to her, "I had intended to be provocative, but I had also written with tongue firmly in cheek." Fausto-Sterling laid out a thought experiment considering an alternative model of gender containing five sexes: male, female, merm, ferm, and herm. This thought experiment was interpreted by some as a serious proposal or even a theory; advocates for intersex people stated that this theory was wrong, confusing and unhelpful to the interests of intersex people. In a later paper ("The Five Sexes, Revisited"), she has acknowledged these objections.

sterlind 7y ago

Gender studies did indeed start out this way, dismissive of notions of "biological sex," until the case of David Reimer threw a bucket of cold water on those second-wave feminist theories. David was the victim of a botched circumcision as an infant. His doctors decided to turn an outie into an innie, constructed a vagina, and told his parents to raise him as a woman. He was given "vitamin" pills (actually estrogen) and forcibly socialized as female, but it didn't take. He identified as male throughout his life, transitioned as an adult, eventually discovered the truth his parents were hiding and finally killed himself. This was an early factor in third-wave feminism accepting gender identity, which is why almost all millenial and gen-Z feminists accept trans and intersex people and why TERFs tend to be older (or deceased, good riddance Janice Raymond.) I've found that the left tends to distrust science that may contradict its ideology, and the right tends to distrust experiences too alien from their own. In Reimer's case, the science had a human tragedy at the center of it which bridged the gap and led to change.

not_a_terf 7y ago
Wouldn't the Reimer story support a naive version of biological sex moreso than an acceptance of gender identity?
- danharaj 7y ago
  It supports believing people about what their gender identity is instead of imposing it on them. The rate of attempted suicide in transgender people is over 40% if they are not socially supported. That rate drops to general population levels in trans people who have familial and community support when transitioning.
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    Interesting stats, do you have a citation on the suicide rates?
    - dbuder 7y ago
      It's about right and climbs post op.